Lets not forget that this, the largest military incursion for decades was sparked by the deaths of five Israeli soldiers. That certainly didn't seem "bearable" to the Israeli people, and that was only five. Just because the lives being lost are Arab ones doesn't mean they are worth any less or should be accepted casually.

Whilst Arabic media is obiously quoting more, the BBC's current figures are 20 dead, a further 60 injured. Certainly from the video footage I saw, there were a lot more than 7 in the blast, I saw at least one child being carried away, and then hospital footage of one child who'd lost a leg and one who'd lost an arm. As much as Israeli media would love to portray the killed as militants, there just was not a gun in sight, and children were caught up in the explosion.

But the solution really is so so simple. 'Stay in Israel'. The entire world with the exception of the US is united in declaring the occupation illegal under international law...even a monkey could tell it is plainly illegal. It is the single biggest recruiting agent for terrorists and the biggest anti-western rallying point. If you want to win the war on terror, then surely we should address the causes of terrorism and end the occupation. I would imagine that a few more terrorists have been born today.

[ 05-19-2004, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

At least ten Palestinians were killed and 35 wounded when Israeli forces fired on a crowd demonstrating against the invasion of a Gaza refugee camp today, according to hospital sources.

Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks and a helicopter had fired on the crowd in Rafah. The wounded were taken to a nearby hospital in ambulances, private cars and donkey carts.

It is believed that around 3,000 people were taking part in the protest against the Israeli invasion of the Rafah refugee camp.

Protesters scattered in panic as the air and artillery attack took place, dragging bloodied people from the streets as smoke rose from the area.

Palestinian hospital sources cited by the Associated Press said the 10 dead were children and teenagers.

Israel's military acknowledged it fired four tank shells, one missile and machine guns to stop 3,000 Palestinian demonstrators it said were heading toward a battle zone in the Gaza Strip.

The incident prompted international condemnation. The EU said Israel's actions were "completely disproportionate" and showed "a reckless disregard for human life".

Irish Foreign Minister Brian Cowen, speaking on behalf of the EU presidency, said: "The killing of children does not serve any legitimate cause and degrades any purpose which it purports to advance."
<font size="1">Guardian</font>

<font color="#C4C1CA">With all due respect to Brian Cowen, he is wrong. This is a battle against a monstrous enemy that has been waged for a thousand years and the IDF has been fighting it for its entire existence.

The hordes of Vandals found that same enemy in the form of the Romans - fought it and lost; the viking fleets fought those same monsters on the shores of the British Isles and nearly won - only to find themselves shackled by it, Atilla the Hun came up against it, won many battles but was seduced by it and slain by it. Hitler thought he could beat it - but it still ended his life.

We shouldn't be condeming the shelling of peaceful demonstrators but praising the brave actions of the tank and helicopter crews for helping to rid the world of a few terrorist children. Those crews are all that stand between us and civilisation - they deserve our support before its too late, before we all end up living peacefully together in complete boredom, devoid of action.

The human race is barbarous by nature - it isn't too late to turn the clocks back a thousand years and give in to our base instincts. The tank and helicopter crews know this and are doing their best to make it come about - so don't criticise them. They're only 'culling' the population - not wiping it out - so that makes it alright, doesn't it?

Shamrok-We had terrorrists even before we had israel. "staying in israel" while you are bombed by katyushas, kasams, and suiciders is not an option. Untill iran and saudia exists we will have suiciders and bombings no matter what.
Notice-we had almost 0 casualties among civilians in the past few monthes. Invasion pays off!!

And about the usage of the word bearable. I live in a country that has TA as the way of life. I am sorry but i simply developed a "non sensitive" skin. To you 5 death is a lot. To me it is daily news.


Skunk-you failed to refer to my argument that the soldiers coud not possibly know who the demonstrators were.

Besides-these demonstrators had a common sence of a mugerrs from BG2 that attack korgan and minsc. Getting close to a tank while shouting, during this situation, is not wise. You may also forget but we had a couple of suiciders that were children.

Now about "international condemnation". Look who opens his mouth. USA that killed 40 people in a wedding. Annan and Company that failed in ruanda. Or should i say Annan and company that failed to achieve anything at all. The brave organization that helped hizballah to kidnap and kill 3 of our soldiers. I can continue the list if you like.

"International condemnation" is not worth anything. While no one demands from USA to pull back from iraq,and actually doing some things-like embargo, i call that kind of behaviour a hypocrite one.

I'm shocked that you even visit the NRO site Timber!!! Shocked I am! Shocked!

;)

Does anybody ever really care about anything that doesn't have any impact on their lives?

I'm sure you're not that shocked. I'm sure you have surmised -- I was led there. ;)

Skunk. Wonderful comments, great to see you coming around. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Nice to see you finally realize that some societies are simply inferior to others. Welcome, brother. :D

[ 05-20-2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

When you take into account the Palestinian penchant for strapping bombs to kids what else could the Israelis do?

It's only a very short article and not all that news-worthy, but I was under the impression that China never tried to proliferate itself on any International matter outside of their direct sphere of influence, making this condemnation all the more remarkable. And there's probably some hypocrisy in there somewhere just the same...

China condemns Israel's killing of Palestinians in Rafah

BEIJING, May 20 (Xinhuanet) -- China on Thursday condemned the killing of Palestinians by Israeli army in Rafah of the Gaza Strip.
"China condemns the Israeli troops' firing at Palestinian demonstrators which resulted in heavy casualties on the Palestinian side," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao at a regular press conference.
At least 10 Palestinians were killed and dozens of others injured on Wednesday when Israeli troops fired on a group of demonstrators who were protesting against an Israeli military operation in Rafah.
"We urge the Israeli side to respond to the appeal of the international community, and immediately halt its military operations in Palestinian areas to avoid further deterioration of the situation," Liu said.

XinhuaNet

<font color="#C4C1CA">
I *have* been there in that same situation on several occasions - but acting under very different (and very clear) rules of engagement.

What are you supposed to do when you are unsure about the target? WITHDRAW and perform a reconnaissance to establish the exact target, then use APPROPRIATE force. A tank shell is NOT appropriate when large numbers of non-combatents are assembled.

In time you are going to be serving in those areas yourself (if I remember correctly from your posts). When you come back, we can discuss this on a more equal level and compare notes.

I served in Northern Ireland as best as I could with as much humanity as I could muster - but then, I had strict orders to follow - orders that would have seen me court-martialed and charged with MURDER had I done the same as that tank crew. Despite that, I was disillusioned by the end of my tour of duty - convinced that it was right for troops to be there, and unconvinced by the way things worked in practice.

This bloke serves up the same kind of experiences (although his are worse) that caused me to resign my commission. He has more courage than me - I won't repeat all of the things that I saw - I'm a little too ashamed (if I'm really honest about it) that I never formally complained about the same kind of abuses (even if they were on a much lesser scale).
</font>

An interesting point skunk. (btw i will go back to the IDF at 8.6.2004, so expect me to stop spamming then. :D ) . I will have to think about it.