Marriage is the union of two people who love each other. As a Wiccan, I would perform the handfasting ceremony on almost any couple who asked me, so long as the love was true... For some, that would be enough. For others, they want the government to recognize it as well. I also feel that it is/should be a valid option for any two consenting adults.

Link: Can you not tell a person that you love them in other ways than marrying them? Why does marrying them tell them that? Shouldn't they know that without needing whatever it is you think marriage says (what do you think it says)

I'm not disagreeing, simply playing devils advocate to explore what you're saying. Can you elaborate?

Illumina: You say marriage is the union of two people who love each other. How are they united? Is the ceremony mystical in your eyes? What are you calling marriage? The state of being? The state of being united with another person you love? If so, then are defactos - people who live together for years - married according to you, as per U.K. common law?

Do we need to call it marriage to be in fact married? (Depending on what marriage is of course)

What of political marriages of old. Because they weren't love driven, were those marriages null and void in your eyes?

C'mon... let's seriously explore the notion here. Fundamentally. For something so present in human society we have very few answers. :(

Perhaps I should make some polarising one-eyed statement to galvanise responses and provoke discussion. :(

How are they united? That's a very difficult question... It depends on peoples' religious beliefs. Strictly speaking, it's a union recognized by a 'higher power' be it a deity or the government. It normally involves some sort of ceremony.
And I won't even touch 'convenient' marriages... Those were marriage in a legal, technical, on-paper sense... If there is no love, can it truly be marriage? I am unsure.

Sure I can elaborate. No big deal [img]smile.gif[/img]

I think you can tell another person that you love them perfectly well without marrying them. What I meant to say in my original post was that I don't hold a special fondness to marry or something like it, but I am not against it.

If I like a girl very very much, and she likes me as well and we have a lot in common then there is always a probability that we could get married eventually. While I don't think there will be doubt about whether or not we love each other, marriage gives you in my honest opinion a more definitive version of a normal relationship. You commit to each other, saying that you will stand by their side, help them when help is needed and vice versa. Not that you wouldn't do that before marriage, but it becomes more than spiritual if you get what I mean. The ring you give to each other symbolizes your bond and not only do you love each other with spiritual force, you also carry that love with you through that ring. You are reminded of that special someone in your life through the fact that you're married.

Now I don't want to sound like some pro-marriage guy, but I definitely do not see any bad sides in marrying. I do think marriage is becoming something too easily looked at these days. People get married fairly quickly and it is not an exception anymore that you get divorced (and Hollywood is the worst example in this case). I regret that a lot, as I see marriage as something special and not something to be tossed about so easily.

To me it is joining together with one other person to team up together and tackle or enjoy the trials, tribulations, failures, successes, joys, discoveries, and experiences of life. If there is a life after death, I would hope you could continue with your partner in whatever journeys there may be.

To me, it is important that this coupling be for life (or forever). In my mind, ideally you and the other person would continue to grow and mature together and not grow apart.

I don't personally hold with the notion of marriage. It has arisen historically and was primarily an act passing ownership of a daughter to another man when she came of age. It was more to do with a business agreement involving inheritance of land than with the notions of love and loyalty we connect with it today. Although I'm too young to remember it, if my facts are correct it is only fairly recently in historical terms that women have been able to have their own bank account in the UK without permission of a father or husband!

Another issue for me - I do not feel that the state has any place or role in determining the private relationships of anyone. Legal marriage is an act of state sanction of a private relationship. I do not feel that this should be an issue for the state.

I have never been married, but have been 'de facto' or 'common law' married, in that I lived with a partner for 11 years. As I was a Civil Servant at the time, this granted me a few potential work related benefits (the entitlement to relocation expenses if my partner at the time was compulsoraly relocated, widows pension if he died in service, that sort of thing). The state however does not recognise common law marriages in the same way as legal marriages, unless they benefit rather than the couple - if you are in a common law marriage for example and are claiming benefits those benefits are claimed as a married couple and therefore lower than the single state benefit and if your partner is working you get nothing, but your common law partner is not legally your next of kin and will not automatically inherit your estate should you die intestate. Mortgage tax relief was also only given to legally married couples, not common law.

Having said all that, I feel it is not contradictory of me to say that I would wish anyone who was wanting to marry for whatever reason every happiness. I do feel though that your choice of partner, partners, gender and sexuality issues, and how you want to conduct your relationship should be entirely personal, and not subject to state legislation of any kind.

I think I agree. In principle at least.

But what of incestuous unions, or cousins? The gene pool of society is negatively affected in the long term. Shouldn't a society be able to decisions if it will be undermined?

What too of paedophilic unions? Where one person is coercing a lesser developed mind?

Where do you stand on polygamy? Is that included in your umbrella of tolerance?

As I said, I think I agree, but these issues above cause me concern.

Thanks for writing Laura/Nigel. ;) :D

Under your belief in a "higher power" if that power is a government, then it would be a marriage. How do you measure love? How can a government tell if a person loves another person?

So, depending on YOUR religious beliefs how do you see the couple as being united?

I wonder how many people get married simply because society moves them in that direction. How many do it simply because it's "what you do", and how many give serious thought to the questions in here.

What is unity with another person?
How is marriage different from any other relationship?
How does/will marriage affect my relationship with this person.

I am a fan of cohabitational life commitment with a person you can create new life with. I believe it is the intended state of existence for humanity. Though my divorce initially left me cynical and bitter, I do believe in the power of commitment.

"Is this person right for me?" vs "This person will be right for me". The commitment creates love. I think a social marriage can create a degree of emotional support for a couple, but is not necessary for that couple to survive.

Still pondering it all. Would love to hear further thoughts.

As a friend of mine put it:
Calling someone your "girlfriend" is for the two of you.
Getting engaged is a declaration of the coupling for the family and friends.
Marriage is a declaration before society and before God.

Of course, he used this to justify cheating on his girlfriend, so this "nice thought" certainly came from a jaded origin. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]