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- - write something, guys (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70185)

Quote:

Originally posted by Aurican:
Why are all of you people trying to make it out that Americans are stupid, uniformed people that don't know anything. You two so far seems be mocking a person that is obviously distraught by the deaths of many thousands of his(and my own) countrymen. Terrorism is something that the free world is against. Including every citizen of the UK. How would you guys feel if tens of thousands of people were randomly killed in London out of the blue? I don't care how much you dispise Americans but in the very least respect them enough after the deaths of so many. Some of the "strangers" you can so idly comment about are actually family here. So how about keeping your snide comments to yourselves. Thanks.

If you are refering to my comment, let me explain the rational behind it.

My heart goes out to the people who died in NY and Washington, and to the families who mourn them. I do NOT see this as some kind of joke, nor do I take it lightly.

However, the idea that this is some inexplicable attack on freedom and democracy which has no basis in past actions by the American government and previous US governments is simplistic and uninformed, in my opinion. I do not condone these atrocities. On the contrary! However, there is such a thing as cause and effect, and it is useless to condemn actions out of hand without looking at the historical actions that led up to them.

As you are very likely aware, the US must bear its part of the responsibility in creating Islamic terrorist groups. For example, during the cold war, the US financed a number of extremist groups, including that of Bin Laden, to use against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

What I'm saying is less warmongering rhetoric, more looking at the background, what led up to the events. That's the only sensible way to construct a strategy to move forward. There's such a thing as learning from mistakes, but to do that, you need to be aware of what they are.

I am not singling out America for special treatment here. Exactly the same can be said of Britain and the rest of Europe with regard to the colonies. There's a large element which still refuses to accept that we bear any blame for what has happened in the ex colonial countries.

250's post did not come across as being particularly distraught - it was the big 'PUNKS' comment in bold that did it for me. If people want to rant, then fine, go right ahead. But I'm entitled to my opinion too, ok? Rhetoric is what Saddam uses, what the Ayatollah used, what dictators everywhere use. All those emotive words. I'm always worried when I see it. To my mind, it's no replacement for thought.

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http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg

Quote:

Originally posted by dominions:
Your probably right there.

The thing is, though, how do deal with such monsters without becoming a monster yourself?

"He who hunts monsters should take care not to become a monster himself."

"When you look long into the abyss the abyss also looks into you."

I'm pretty sure that Nietzche said the second one.

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Worshipper of Tiax.

Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.

Member of the HADB clan. http://www.dabros.net/images/tcampbell/hadb5.jpg

Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy

[This message has been edited by Neb (edited 09-13-2001).]

My main worry is that in dealing out punishment to the wrong do-ers, we might end up hurting innocent people. It don't think this will happen, but it IS a worry for me.

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Well one thing would be to treat them as criminals of war. Make them stand trial in the court in Haag, the same as the Nazis had to face for their inhuman acts some of them dealt to people during the war. Make a world wode organisation that hunts warcriminals and terrorist alike. Make no room for them. Start the manhunt and bring them to justice.

As democratic countries, that is what we should do. What we all might want to do, we maybe better keep to ourselves...

In reality, no punishment is severly enough, but we can never get back what is lost in these attakcs, but we can try to reclaim ourselves and show them that we can fight back being "us"..

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http://wolfgir.najk.net/wolfie.gif
Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

I agree that they should be brought to justice, and I agree that they should be punished in some way more harsh than being hit over the head with pillows(Not ones filled with lead or bricks), I agree that they should in fact be punished VERY harshly, no mercy, but there must be a limit to how far we can go before we are as bad as them.

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Worshipper of Tiax.

Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.

Member of the HADB clan. http://www.dabros.net/images/tcampbell/hadb5.jpg

Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy

Quote:

Originally posted by WOLFGIR:
Well one thing would be to treat them as criminals of war. Make them stand trial in the court in Haag, the same as the Nazis had to face for their inhuman acts some of them dealt to people during the war. Make a world wode organisation that hunts warcriminals and terrorist alike. Make no room for them. Start the manhunt and bring them to justice.

As democratic countries, that is what we should do. What we all might want to do, we maybe better keep to ourselves...

In reality, no punishment is severly enough, but we can never get back what is lost in these attakcs, but we can try to reclaim ourselves and show them that we can fight back being "us"..

Yes, that seems to me the best and most civilised way to go, once it is found out for sure who the perpetrators are. The evidence needs to be shown in court, and justice done for all to see, without hurting the innocent. If it is bin Laden though, it's the same old problem. How do you find him? It's not like people havn't tried.... For those who want to do indiscriminate bombing, same problem. bin Laden never stays in the same place two nights running. He knows exactly what he's doing when it comes to keeping out of the hands of the West, - he's been doing it for long enough.... and he's very good at it.

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http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg

For the individuals they will have a trial, because even thougyh we want blood, justice must be meet. Also we have to insure that we have the correct people. i already feel sorry for the defense attorny.

Quote:

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
My heart goes out to the people who died in NY and Washington, and to the families who mourn them. I do NOT see this as some kind of joke, nor do I take it lightly.

However, the idea that this is some inexplicable attack on freedom and democracy which has no basis in past actions by the American government and previous US governments is simplistic and uninformed, in my opinion. I do not condone these atrocities. On the contrary! However, there is such a thing as cause and effect, and it is useless to condemn actions out of hand without looking at the historical actions that led up to them.

As you are very likely aware, the US must bear its part of the responsibility in creating Islamic terrorist groups. For example, during the cold war, the US financed a number of extremist groups, including that of Bin Laden, to use against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

What I'm saying is less warmongering rhetoric, more looking at the background, what led up to the events. That's the only sensible way to construct a strategy to move forward. There's such a thing as learning from mistakes, but to do that, you need to be aware of what they are.

I am not singling out America for special treatment here. Exactly the same can be said of Britain and the rest of Europe with regard to the colonies. There's a large element which still refuses to accept that we bear any blame for what has happened in the ex colonial countries.

250's post did not come across as being particularly distraught - it was the big 'PUNKS' comment in bold that did it for me. If people want to rant, then fine, go right ahead. But I'm entitled to my opinion too, ok? Rhetoric is what Saddam uses, what the Ayatollah used, what dictators everywhere use. All those emotive words. I'm always worried when I see it. To my mind, it's no replacement for thought.

Silver Cheetah, I love you http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Well said as usual.

Indeed silver Cheetah, that why all democratic countries have to act together and make some sort of global antiterrorism unite that operates to do the searches and so for them all. Take use of all the allies, Israel is pretty good at finding terrorists, as is the Russians. The UK and Germany and Italy have had their share of terrorism. Together we get many and we get a larger budget and all. And together we can close borders, put pressure on countries that harbour terrorists and war criminals alike. Economy is a great weapon to weaken states in need of money...

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http://wolfgir.najk.net/wolfie.gif
Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

It's understandable what Silver Cheetah is saying, but I don't think you can quite grasp the range of emotions that Americans are going through right now.

For the most part we are isolated geographically from the rest of the world. For this to happen so suddenly and without warning (and for those of you who claim blah blah the government forsaw this coming, the majority of the American people did not) is almost unbelievable to Americans. We simply have not an event of this magnitude EVER in American history. People have been making comparisons to Pearl Harbor, but we were in fact in the midst of a World War, and we were already involved... not declared, but de facto.

This was not a military act. This was a terrorist act.

I've noticed that a lot of people (Americans and non-Americans) are quick to say that we are arrogant and that we disrespect the rest of the world. I think this is unfair, but im not here to discuss international politics.

Its just too early to be making assumptions of retaliation, but it is also too early to try to pin the blame and in a roundabout way say we had it coming. No one deserves this, no matter who or where they are.

On Tuesday morning, I awoke to ignorant cheers of "We are going to war!". When I asked what was going on, no one would tell me, and had to turn on the TV to see the Twin Towers ablaze. the WTC is less than 15 miles from my home. I regularly look out to see the towers and the NY skyline.

I cannot describe to you the feeling of helplessness I had, being away from home. I know people who's parents were in the tower at that time. You try telling them that rhetoric is irresponsible.

It is simply too early... too much too soon. Let us regroup, and don't base your opinions of the US on the wild emotions that are running through the nation right now. We are scared as a whole. We lost many people.

Please have some consideration.