Thieves can't be lawful good. Theft implies breaking of laws - it's not a moral choice to be good or evil. And how is stealing from the rich and giving it to the poor not good? It's just not lawful, that's all. http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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The description of lawful is that they always follow a set of rules but doesnt mean they follow the countrys rules. Maybe a lawful good kensai from kara-tur is honor bound to kill the person that attacks his master even if that master is running a crime ring and the person he killed was keldorn. A chaotic good character might not do that but since the lawful good kensai ALWAYS follows his set of rules he does.

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My 3E Rogue is Chaotic Good, but then she's NOT a thief. She's a government agent - however the Rogue class was closest to the skills a spy/troubleshooter requires

Now you sound like another planescape:torment npc Eli Havelock.

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This is a great topic,
Those who have said that thieves cannot be of lawful alignment are correct - this applies to all rogues including bards.

I think it would be kind of cool to have a lawful good bard kit - no pickpocketing but have something like detect traps, a special bardsong or a good cleric spell as a special ability instead. After all, as far as I can see there's nothing particularly unlawful about being a singer/storyteller per se, it's the thieving aspect that determines the alignment restriction isn't it?

I'd be interested to hear other views on this. I think if I ever got into kit creation this would be my project.

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Epona of The Laughing Hyenas and The Ladies Guild.

I think that thieving is neither Good, Neutral, or Evil. Within the game context, no action is easy to judge in isolation - you have to look at the big picture.

Suppose a wicked Dragon took over a Dwarf cave, full of riches. If the Dwarves ask a thief to sneak in and retrieve the gold, he would be acting in a Good way, wouldn't he? (Bilbo Baggins) But that demands the wilful bending of rules- so he'd be Chaotic. Most our heroes are. Few by-the-book people make interesting tales.

Since it's always Unlawful to steal, I guess that stands to reason. But you can be a Neutral Good person, and be driven to steal, say out of hunger? Such a character would rarely steal.

What about killing though? If stealing is Unlawful, surely killing should be worse? How can a monster-killing person be a Lawful Good Paladin? Shouldn't they seek alternative means to handle the problem?

As for Robin every Lawful good person i meet DOSE try to seek alternitve means to defeat him.

as for the bard subject,i think whay makes him Unlawful is his personaltiy,not just pickpokceting,now i want go into what excaley i think his personialty restircks him from being lawful (heh heh) but thats for another thread.

but of course i could be wrong

"Thief" is actually just a title. For instance, my thieves NEVER pick pockets. I just use them for finding and disarming traps, and sometimes for picking locks. This character isn't doing anything remotely evil or unlawful (I don't consider picking locks in DUNGEONS to be illegal), yet he is still a "Thief". He's as much of a thief as a Paladin is, yet he can never be considered 'Lawful'.

Very interesting topic! So if you were asked to retrieve a document from
say a certain person who was not evil, but would not willingly give you
the document you would be forced to pick pocket the individual to avoid
a unnecissary death? where would this put you on the alighnment side??
I personaly believe stealing can only lead to harm.

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Boy do I wish I had my DnD books here. I think we are arguing semantics. But I do have a Lawful Good Race that many would consider thieves: Kender. If you don't know what they are, you need to. http://www.tgeweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

BK