starfire has a great point about the fighter and rogue, as opposed to lord or samurai.

there is another thread discussing good parties to start with. part of the problem is how does one (ie you) trade off learning about the game against powering through and winning?

wiz 8 is complex, and some stretches can be awfully cruel, where more than little luck is needed (the arnika road around level 6-8 may be the worst for that in all the game). having said that, the more you know about the game, the easier it will be.

so one way to look at your current party is as a learning experience. learning about wiz 8 combat tactics (terrain, weapons, spells, party formation, etc.), learning about strategic approaches to character development, and learning how the different characters work together as a party.

if, on the other hand, you want to have an easier run through, a party composed of easier to develop classes (eg fighter, fighter, rogue, ranger, priest, mage) will have a better time of it.

and, definitely, you arent alone! most, if not all of us, ran many (personally, that means dozens) of parties before we found one that we could take all the way through. and once you get the hang of the complexity and subtlety, you'll find ANY party playable, then the fun really opens up :D

so stick with it! wiz 8 turns out to be one of the most rewarding game experiences around.

good luck - and if we can help, we'll sure try [img]smile.gif[/img]

Personally, I prefer a mage and a bishop in my parties. The mage gets a couple of good offensive spells early, plus missile shield and enchanted blade, both good buffs.

If you're having that much trouble on the road to Trynton, you may want to consider staying in Arnika to go up another level or two first. Be sure you get the X-Ray spell, which shows all monsters on the main map. Can be very helpful when you want to avoid fights.

<center>Nightowl2</center>

Nightowl2 has a point, you could stay in arnika a bit longer and level up a few levels, that is if you have an earlier save you can go back to. Sometimes just one or two levels can make a huge difference.

If you can get to a niche out of sight of the monsters and rest a full 8 hours they might wander away and you won't have to fight them. I've done that a few times, sometimes it worked and sometimes not.

If you do have an earlier save, you could try going to the northern wilderness first and then to trynton, sometimes the fights are easier in the northern wilderness. I rarely run into juggernauts on the northern wilderness road, but alway, always run into them on the arnika-trynton road lol

I'm not a powergamer by any means, but if you'd like things a bit easier perhaps you could try a party something like this:

Fighter
Rogue
Bard
Priest
Ranger or alchemist
Mage

These classes in my opinion are the easiest to develope and except the Ranger level up quite quickly. An alchemist will be able to mix high level potions and powders a lot more quickly then the Ranger will, which will give you access to great amounts of cash in which to equip your tanks with the best possible weapons and armour.

My very first party that I ascended with was as follows

Lizard Fighter
Hobbit Bard
Human Priest
Gnome Alchemist
Mook Psionic
Faerie Mage

Some might consider that a boring party, but it allowed me to finish the game a bit easier than if I had taken hybrids my first time through and I experienced much less frustration. As I've grown more experienced and learned how to develope the different classes properly I've been taking the hybrids instead of pure casters.

Hi J'aran,

I agree with the others, you need to build up levels first. My party usually reach this area at Lvl 10 or 11. At this point such a group is tough but you earn lots of experience for this fight.
That enemy combination is deadly for lower parties.
For that Juggernauts : I avoid them later each time I met a group.Not because I cannot win but they are so boring because you need too much time for too little rewards.
Bad luck also takes place here . I do not often meet monster 3 levels higher than my party ( I once had a similar problem in the monastery with slimes ).Let your bishop learn X-Ray so you can detect enemies early . That can help to avoid tough groups in the beginning.

Greeting

I'm amazed [img]graemlins/crazyeyes.gif[/img] you encountered creatures 3 levels higher than your party at novice. I though that was a *ahum* privilege reserved for the higher difficulties.

The encounter you describe is very tough. It is a combination of a number of different enemies complementing each other. The behemoths keep you occupied while the weeds disable you (nauseate). And this gives the behemoths the change to do a lot of damage (nauseated means lower armor). And running away is almost impossible because of the bats. Bad combination indeed.

If you are sure you can't beat them I suggest retreating to another zone (ie monastary) and hope that different groups will spawn on the road.
But first try all the tactics you can think of. Use all the potions, powders, artifact and spells, just to see what works.

I learned a lot from seemingly impossible battles.

Good hunting! :D

[ 11-11-2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Deejax ]

Hi Deejax,

I discovered the same problem in the monastery ( my level 9 party faced two lvl 12 flesheater slimes ).

Greetings

I'd say you are unlucky. Juggernauts are very rare at arnika road, even at higher levels. I have killed them with a level 8 party before, but only with a bard with unlimited insanity spell (which works quite well against them)

A small note to your party: i'd rather take bishop + mage instead of bishop + priest. You still have all protection spells, but two offensive casters. Makes a big difference when you have fireball and iceball with two characters at this stage.

Run away from them, and rest in a save spot (near the house, at the chest, or back in the monastary). After resting 3 times, the monster will have changed.

This is along the same lines as Starfire's quote...

I think a good party would be:

Dracon Fighter
Human Ninja/Samurai
Human Ranger
Mook Gadgeteer
Hobbit Bard
Elf Bishop

Front: Ninja/Samurai & Fighter
Outsides: Gadgeteer & Ranger
Middle: Bard & Bishop

WHY, DO YOU ASK???

Dracon Fighters get 60+ points!!! You can easily raise your STR and VIT 20 points (giving you , of course, more damage and more hit points). Plus they come with a little thing called DRACON BREATHE. Spends stamina, but can attack many monsters at once. That is just one "tank", the other is your call.

I always liked the Ninja or Samurai. Samurai can get a really good piece of armor in the begining (NOT GOING TO SAY HOW OR WHERE), but it does have 9 AC. Both; however, give you speed. Samurai have the LIGHTNING STRIKE ABILITY. Allowing them to strike many times. A Ninja is a little more complicated. It doesn't have very good armor, but you can think of it as a Rogue that uses his fists and has AUTO PENETRATE/CRITICAL THROWING. If you are not ready for either, try a Lord or Valk, but if it were me I would take the Samurai.

RANGERS are the key. A Ranger is pretty critical in my parties. Some people say that, "MOST HIDDEN ITEMS ARE NOT REALLY WORTH IT"; I say, "TO THE VICTOR GOES THE SPOILS." The AUTO SEARCH ABILITY is quite remarkable. I also like the bonus for ranged attack. I don't allow my Fighter to carry long ranged weapons. I have a Ranger (and a Gadgeteer and a Bard) to take care of that. Honestly, Rangers are the most needed professions in the game (IMO).

As for the Bard and Gadgeteer... Easy enough!!! There are GADGETS AND INSTRUMENTS in the game that YOU SHOULD NOT pass up. A Bard also helps you recouperate faster when you camp, (since if you camp to long the MONSTERS WILL REGENERATE) allowing you to camp for less time. Think about it!!! And if you ask me, every Bard I have ever had became my most versitle FIGHTER. I usually keep them in the middle so... a good RANGED WEAPON (like bows/crossbows or slings) would do just fine. Gadgeteers are just cool. They can create gadgets, merge items, have MODERN WEAPON BONUS, are very good at ranged attacks, etc. Along with the Ranger and the Bard, you got plenty of "COVER FIRE" for those "HARD TO REACH CREATURES" (so your Fighter/Lord/Valk/"Tank" can worry about the close ranged creatures; eg Juggernauts).

Why the Bishop? I just think it is easier to decide what type of magic you want to use. If you select Mage you get Wizardry. Alcemist = Alcemey. A Bishop gives you the choice. A Bishop is kind of like a Hybrid, without losing levels. They give you the choice of which field you want to study (magic realm) or you could just do them all. YEAH YEAH YEAH... I know that it takes forever to do that, but I LIKE THEM. I only like one spell caster. WHY??? I don't like the sound of of ONE SPELL backfiring, so why should I WANT TWO!!!

The bottom line is, "GO WITH WHAT IS EASIER FOR *YOU*." That party I suggested is my first party to go all of the way; in fact that party went twice (with a few more sidequests and a bit of tweeking). I you can, use RPCs. I know that you spread the EXP a little more but it does give you an advantage over bigger parties. As for the "COUTINOUS" BATTLES, I hope you last longer than I did, J'aran!!!

There you go...

EDIT: As for the Juggernauts being "RARE", Wereboar; it might just be me, but I RUN INTO THEM A LOT!!! I'm serious, A LOT!!!

[ 11-11-2003, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

agreed, asg - not only do i run into juggernauts a lot, but running into creatures 3 levels above me is downright common. and i rarely play expert!

I think that the main problem with juggernaut's is the high number of attacks they get in the early stages of the game when you encounter them. If they just had one attack each round they wouldn't be much harder than the rest of the monsters you encounter on the road, but this way I would consider them one of the strongest in those early stages, apart from fixed encounters of course.