If I am the culprit, SecretMaster, I sincerely apologize. I should have had a spoiler alert, or even better, said don't do this until you have finished all quests for the Umpani and T'Rang that you want to do first. It would be hard to do this in any way without spoiling it. I guess I should have said there is a way to make an alliance without giving any details. I recently had to backtrack quite a bit when I did something too soon (rescued a certain Sgt). You can finish almost any game even if you do things out of sequence, but it might not max out your experience. I'll be more careful if my details were too explicit without a warning. It seems to happen here.

Its all right dude. I kinda figured that would happen since both of them go "Its to late, now there can be no peace" if you screw up. I also want to investigate a room I never got to from a certain key dropped by a certain king.

Bout the Rapax Queen thingy never being finished, I never found her, then again, I never really did explore the rapax castle and rift to well, nor did I explore the camp where the king is.

16) class-less character development.

It was something my wife and I came up with the other night when talking about our latest parties. We're long-time fans of role-playing games (paper and computer), and found quite a bit of enjoyment in those systems that had open character development - where all skills were open to everyone (eg GURPS or Arcanum)

So, we were thinking, why not in Wiz? Say, at character setup, in the upper right corner, you had a list of tickboxes for which skills you wanted available. You could pick from any of the spellbooks, music, engineering, criticals, stealth, etc.

On the right at the top would be your race stats and bonus points listed, which would adjust as per the skills you open. So, for example, if you add criticals, your speed and senses are adjusted up to the minimum bonus points available adjusted down (if necessaary).

At the bottom would be a list of restrictions or new abilities. So, for example, if you open stealth or criticals your character cannot wear heavier than the leather armours, or if you open both you cant wear more than suede. Or, other examples, opening the priest spellbook allows you turn undead, and the alchemist spellbook allows you to mix potions.

The more skills you open, the higher the xp required to level up. eg an additional 10% per level for each spellbook, 5% each for stealth, locks/traps, pickpocket, music, engineering.

And, you can pick where to put your 25% bonus on any skill - only one, but your choice!

Really, this exists implicitly within the balancing of the current 14 classes. So why not open it right up?

How bout a dark priest of a thieving cult? He's got the priest spellbook, stealth, lock/traps, and a 25% bonus to dagger.

Or even just little tweaks, like a ninja with the psionic spellbook, or a ranger without spells - just a bow/tracking/mythology specialist.

Imagine the possibilities!

That's cool. I'd like to see a dark Monk or Priest, or whatever. An alchemist Valkerie. A Gadgeteer Ninja?

[ 07-22-2003, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

Actually, IMO, it is the limitations and character differences that make Wizardry 8 so strategically rich. Matching the right weapon or combat strategies to the right character creation and development.

"Opening it up" is a good idea (Morrowwind, I believe, does that. Daggerfall certainly did), but I strongly prefer differences that are balanced (this one has that, but not this) but not available to every character.

Having "custom" characters, where you can mix and match skill availability with some sort of point system is possible, but is more necessary for single character game. For a party based game you can just mix different characters with the skills you require. Need locks and traps? Include a Rogue, Gadgeteer or Bard. Think of it as not a custom character, like in Morrowwind, but a custom party. In Wizardry 8 it is the party you play, not the characters. Combining diverse characters into a coherent, balanced and powerful whole is where I, personally, find most of the fun!

Having characters with known capabilities allows lots of strategies to be shared with other players. It allows apples-apples comparisons that would not be feasible with custom characters.

So in a sense Wizardry 8 already does the custom thing. Certain aspects of the characters are fixed, but you can put whatever you want in your custom party.

[ 07-22-2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

EEW - I dont believe that class-less character development and strategic party development are an either/or proposition. Perhaps the history of computer RPGs has trained us to believe that - you are absolutely correct that single-PC games really need that richness to make up for the lack of party dynamics. However, I feel that the strategic decision-making could only get more complex and subtle if you had more control over the character *classes*.

another thing for my wish-list (again building on another computer RPG I've played):

17) random weapon creation

The first time I ran across this was playing Divine Divinity. Virtually every weapon in the game is unique, with a huge variety of damage ranges, stat bonuses, skill bonuses, etc, making replay even more varied. Of course, there are still certain guanteed, truly special unique weapons (a la Fang).

I just wish they hadent made some of the best items in the game random drop. I would rather have to do some long quest, or pay an obscene amout of money than kill the same creature hunderds of times and still not get the item.

Well, i like it. Its nice to find a new powerful object in your 15th game (stave of 12 stars, in my case). The problem is that we are spoiled from the boards or walkthroughs, and want them in our first game.

I'd like it when the game contained about 20 different very powerful items, and you could get say two random ones each game (but fixed at games start, otherwise you'd reload for hours to get the ones you want)

I think the game would be even cooler if you can...

18 - Change the camera angles of the game so you can see your own characters
do everything.
19 - Show an "Instant replay" in a different angle whenever a Critical hit or
Instant Kill occurs similar to EA's NBA Live when a dunk is performed.

Not that i would play this game all the way through 15 times, but the lightsword is usually only dropped once every 200 or so battles with the buccaneers. Thats just insanity.