Clerics are even faster at getting summons. They only need 13000XP, or 26000XP if multiclassed, to start casting Animate Dead.

[ 01-07-2006, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

True, which is why access to a cleric from the beginning is so nice, especially on higher difficulty levels which make your tanks correspondingly more vulnerable to melee attacks.

However, the fairly low XP requirements to hit druid level 7 means that there is no need to moan about how long it takes to get druid summons. Sufficient attention to tactics will preserve the party until then.

All time, I end up with a dc f3/druid. Due to the huge advantage of druids getting entangle and early access to lvl4/5/6 summons.

I've played around with dalekeeper (a nice tool i found from one of the older post) on the effectiveness of a mc vs a dc f/cleric. Seems that a dc Fig7>Cleric has the same melee thaco as a mc f/c. So it makes sense to use a dc f/c as a more effective tank. Would I be right?
(I've never tried playing this and my clerics don't survive long in the front line anyway. Sigh ...)

Since most melee class dont last 10-15seconds in the front line without summons, would a MC cleric/mage be a better idea for a front line tank?

On mc vs dc - a F[7]/Cl will have the same effective thaco as what level of mc F/Cl? If you play on high level difficulties, and/or the entire HoW and TotL expansions, a mc should end up with a better adjusted thaco than a lvl 7 (or even lvl 9) dc.

A cleric/mage might survive as a defensive tank, but would be terrible at dealing out damage, except at quite high levels. I wouldn't recommend it - the spell usage it would require to be defensively and offensively effective is quite heavy. Look at it this way; a lvl 7 paladin specialized in longsword attacks twice per round with +1 to attack, +2 to damage, exceptional strength bonuses to attack and damage ranging from +1/+3 to +3/+6, and a warrior's thaco of 14. A lvl 7/7 cleric mage (I haven't compared the XP required for each) has thaco 16, one attack per round, no specialization bonuses, and at most a +1/+2 att/dmg strength bonus for 18 Str. It's a big hit to the natural offensive capacity of a frontline tank. Paladins can also use all of the warrior-specific items (especially potions of giant str and heroism), and can wear armor without worrying about spellcasting.

I view my tanks not so much as a front line, but as a front character that takes the brunt and a few other characters who jump in as necessary to deal out damage and take a bit of pressure off the main tank.

The three keys to tanking are 1) physical placement 2) spell tactics and 3) concentration of items and defensive spells on the tank.

Draw enemies back to a narrow bridge or doorway where they engage your best-protected tank first, and give your tank plenty of missile and spell support. Make them run through webs first so only a few get through at a time, and try to damage the stuck ones with spells and missiles so they are hurt by the time they can attack your front line - summons and charms can prevent enemies from even getting that far. Make sure the main tank has suitable protective spells cast upon it.

Thanks. I'll try all this tactics out.

Does anyone play without summons?

Not lately. I pretty much did in my first jaunts through the game on normal, but tactics predicated on summons and missiles are less stressful than those based on charging and in-melee healing.

There are plenty of spots where I play without summons, but any fight against tough or numerous enemies is far easier with summons to take some pain and help keep your tanks alive and casters out of melee.

Not a fan of summons in BG2 (limit?! WTF?), but in the older IE games I love 'em. Tell me, I've forgotten, does IWD have a summon limit? I find summons works best as primary damage early on, or when there's only 1 opponent with high AC (mages and such)

The limit is 6 creatures. The limit is only on creatures, not on HP or anything like that. The game doesn't care if you've summoned 6 goblins or 6 elementals.

I use summons almost entirely as meat shields to save my party from taking melee damage. I will also summon and move them to distract spellcasters and archers.

Edit: and you generally don't have access to summons early enough that they are capable of handing out more than say 40% of the damage your party causes: berserkers may be an exception.

In contrast to BG2, most of the difficult fights in IWD2 are difficult because of numbers of difficult enemies, not because of one uber-enemy. In these cases, summons are incredibly useful for distracting either the most dangerous enemy or the lesser enemies while your party focus-attacks on the targets not distracted by the summons.

[ 01-09-2006, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]