What exactly is divine ray and why would you trust a mage to not use protection from evil?

I agree that clerics can wear their choice of armors and use shields. They have some good defensive spells, but I would say the mage's choice of defensive spells is definitely not limited. Mirror image, invisibility, prot. from normal missiles, prot. from fire, prot. from cold, stoneskin, spirit armor (excellent spell), fire shield, minor globe of invulnerability, etc... That's only including 1st through 4th level spells. I won't start on improved mantle and spell trap.

As far as offensive firepower goes, it's not close. With the availability of chain contingencies and sequencers, the mage is bound to get a time stop off. If your mage has any clue, the battle's over.

I'll quit rambling and just say that IMO mages are more powerful.

take the most powerful of clerics, put him against an 18th level sorceror, and he will lose, (most likely)

cleric-chaotic commands
sorceror-timestop, improved alacricy, energy blades, protection from evil, gate, comet

by by cleric, lol.

of course, this is all here-say!!

[img]graemlins/ninja.gif[/img]

Thats all well and good but druids still kick some serious arse compared to both. The high level druid spells like Creeping Doom and Summon Elemental Prince are just not worth mentioning. And they are good in combat if they are shapeshifters. This is why I like Cernd, he can soften people up with spells and then dive in to rip up whats left.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant:
take the most powerful of clerics, put him against an 18th level sorceror, and he will lose, (most likely)

cleric-chaotic commands
sorceror-timestop, improved alacricy, energy blades, protection from evil, gate, comet

by by cleric, lol.

of course, this is all here-say!!

[img]graemlins/ninja.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

Well you did forget to mention that clerics do get gate much quickly then mages and they get skeleton warriors at level 13 and arial servants are powerful as well, and i forgot about champions strength now thats a powerful spell.

Why have a cleric when you can have a Planetar? With a planetar summoning mage, a cleric is just a waste of a slot.

Take the best of both worlds, try a gnome Cleric/Illusionist. Nothing like casting cleric spells at -5 off their normal casting speed or in a contingency/trigger.

Multi class mages end up with smaller number of spells to cast, but Illusionist gets an extra spell per level to make up for it. Illusionist cant cast Necromantic spells so you miss out on Skull Trap, Death Spell and Abi Dalzims. Cleric gets Animate Dead and Finger of Death, and Death Fog is Evocation, so you can use that instead of Death Spell to take out hostile summons (then cancel with Zone of Pure Air if you want).

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cleric Fanatic:
Well you did forget to mention that clerics do get gate much quickly then mages and they get skeleton warriors at level 13 and arial servants are powerful as well, and i forgot about champions strength now thats a powerful spell.<hr></blockquote>

*I'm shivering in my boots now* :D Mages get Death spell at 12th level, making your summoned skeletons and aerial servants pointless.
What good is having Champions Strength if you couldn't wade through his mirror imaged, stoneskinned protections. :D

As for Gate, Protection from Evil is a first level spell.

Clerics can be powerful, mages are powerful. :D

Btw,

I like Tim Tam's idea. Although that would cost one of the most effective spells around. Abi's is just plain deadly.

The following text should be taken with a pinch of salt.

<font color="white">Die vile Mage! I shall remove your presence from the face of the- *URK!*</font>

Sadly, Kimber the Blessed failed to finish his speech as he got hit by a Spell Trigger filled with 3 Lower Resistances and a Chain Contingency filled with 3 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wiltings.

Okay, back to a more serious note. I have nothing against Clerics and I know that they can be very powerful. Heck, you can even make them even more powerful by dualling to a Cleric from a Fighter. I like Clerics, and I try to use them whenever I can if I am playing a party. Multiclassed Cleric/Mages totally rock and you can try it out by using Aerie. ;) I love Aerie, and I have experimented spell combos with her before.

Clerics are powerful.
Mages are very powerful.
Multiclassed Cleric/Mages are... :eek: ;) :eek:

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> I love Aerie, and I have experimented spell combos with her before. <hr></blockquote>
LOL Dundee, somehow that just sounded really dirty to me... You sly dog.


I suppose a good way to sum it up is that Clerics are group creatures... They were meant to work in conjunction with the other classes, aiding and augmenting others abilities with their own... Stepping to the fore when a need for their specialty arises.

No matter how ya want to slice it, clerics will Never be as good as magic-users at blowing up generic monsters/bosses... Clerics do have an edge against the undead, and sometimes daemons, but not always. [img]smile.gif[/img]

But I would have to agree with some previous posters and say let the two join together... There isn't anything quite like a cleric/mage with IA up during a timestop (and the robe of vecna/amulet of power) handing out harms, heals, and general arse whoopin! ;)

I myself am considering trying a multi Cleric/Thief... It could be interesting.

<--- Doesn't know why he is still posting to this topic, as everything has been said that needs to... but I guess I just am trying to get out of this Elite Guard rank :D

LOL! Stoneskin doesn't help very much when a cleric is beating the crap out of you with Flail of the Ages now does it? ;)

Clerics can summon serious stuff... Earthquake is a hilarious spell, and oh, don't be forgetting the wonderful, WONDERFUL spell called Miscast Magic. Sorcerers aren't very useful with 75% spell failure now are they?

IWD clerics are better than those of TOB by alot though, as they have FAR more powerful spells... Still, a cleric alone is the easiest solo there is. Clerics also have Finger of Death, can use shields, have magic resistance spells to help or hurt, spell abosrbers, ect....

Also, clerics can get beefed up with spells... Oh, and a first level insivisibility is just MEAN!