Yaaaahhh.....but putting real ammo in them waives their high enchantment, so inorder to hit the Mean Beastie, you've got to use them without ammo....which means that the phantom arrows take forever to get there, which screws up your ApR (since I believe the game can only show 1 Missile per person at one time). And against Mean Beastie, you really want to get the fight over with as quickly as possible--did I use Tansheron against the boss of Improved Sahuagin City? I certainly didn't, I used Karamazov's Bolts+3, despite the fact that I had no proficiencies in Crossbow.

I think I am extremely wrong in my figures. This is all from memory, but I remember my roleplayed Robin Hood character had at least -24 THAC0. So imagine what a powergamed one will have.[/quote]I believe a Level 34 Archer's Kit Bonuses would be -11, not -9 (+1 to hit and +1 to damage every 3 levels).
It's also quite common to have 19 DEX, not 18.
Robin Hood might have been using Taralash+5 instead of Strongarm+2, so that's another 3 points.
And finally, Arrows of Piercing for another 2.
Final rock-bottom THAC0: -30. Or, if you want to add some stinky cheese to the mix, slap on Heartseeker, cast its Bullseye charge, then re-equip Taralash for a temporary THAC0 (2 rounds, wasn't it?) of -37. Twice per day, too. :D

All you need as an Archer is basically two different Bows; Tansheron's and Gesen's with Normal Arrows/Bow of Quiver + 2. Tansheron's can hit all of the +3 creatures (mostly early game though), and Gesen can hit all of the +4 creatures. The normal arrows outfitted for the Gesen Bow, IIRC, also have to additional Electric damage, making it ideal for those PfMW and Stoneskin Mages.

IMO, that would be quite stupid, because then GWW would really suck. I don't really think it works that way.

Tansheron's Bow is very, very useful; If you didn't have any Crossbow profs, then you would be attacking with at least more 1/2 ApR, or maybe 1 1/2 apR (can't remember if Cross(bow)s both get the 1 ApR bonus).

The kit bonus slows down to +1 every five levels instead of every three after lvl 18, so a lvl 34 archer will in fact only have +9 To hit. 18 DEX actually only gives +2 To Hit, 19 is required for +3.

Use DUHM to get 25 DEX and a nice +5 To Hit bonus. Rock-bottom THAC0:

Kit bonus --: -9
25 DEX --- : -14
5* ------- : -17
BoArchery -: -19
Hseeker +3 : -23
AoPiercing -: -27
HoBalduran : -28
Hs ability - : -35

Only for 9 seconds once a day though. The Kensai can do almost as good:

Kit bonus --- : -13
25 STR (CrF) : -20
5* --------- : -23
GoES ------- : -24
SpBrand +5 - : -29
AP Strike --- : -34

Almost the same, but the Kensai can keep it for an extraordinary 18 seconds! As far as permanent THAC0s go, the Kensai has the Archer beat by quite a bit. I'd assume that you can cheese your way down one step with both the Archer and the Kensai by replacing their weapons with something better once you activate the special ability.

[ 01-07-2004, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

Actually, I tested it by equipping Mazzy with Gesen in ToB, and had her shoot at a certain target that respawns indefinitely (won't spoil it for those who do not know). The ammo does take a long time to reach the target, but you still get the same ApR. Thus, you really only notice it right when you first start shooting; after that, the shots are firing off at regular intervals, and you really can't notice much difference. I even used Improved Haste and GWW, and both moved up the ApR just fine. In fact, the missile animation sped up along with the ApR if I remember right, so you may be correct that it can only show one missile at a time on the screen.

Yaaaahhh.....but putting real ammo in them waives their high enchantment, so inorder to hit the Mean Beastie, you've got to use them without ammo....which means that the phantom arrows take forever to get there, which screws up your ApR (since I believe the game can only show 1 Missile per person at one time). And against Mean Beastie, you really want to get the fight over with as quickly as possible--did I use Tansheron against the boss of Improved Sahuagin City? I certainly didn't, I used Karamazov's Bolts+3, despite the fact that I had no proficiencies in Crossbow.

Quote:

From memory... a level 34 Ranger:Archer... ... </font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Base THAC0 : 0 THAC0 Kit Bonuses: -09 THAC0 18 DEX : -12 THAC0 5* : -15 THAC0 BoArchery : -17 THAC0 Strongarm+2: -20 THAC0 HoBalduran : -21 THAC0 QoPlenty+2 : -23 THAC0</pre>

I think I am extremely wrong in my figures. This is all from memory, but I remember my roleplayed Robin Hood character had at least -24 THAC0. So imagine what a powergamed one will have.[/quote]I believe a Level 34 Archer's Kit Bonuses would be -11, not -9 (+1 to hit and +1 to damage every 3 levels).
It's also quite common to have 19 DEX, not 18.
Robin Hood might have been using Taralash+5 instead of Strongarm+2, so that's another 3 points.
And finally, Arrows of Piercing for another 2.
Final rock-bottom THAC0: -30. Or, if you want to add some stinky cheese to the mix, slap on Heartseeker, cast its Bullseye charge, then re-equip Taralash for a temporary THAC0 (2 rounds, wasn't it?) of -37. Twice per day, too. :D </font>[/QUOTE]OH man!!! That's cool

I just remembered... Robin Hood was not wearing the Helm of Balduran, because Robin Hood and his Merry Men (and Woman) were only wearing leather armour and Ioun Stones (strictly no Helmets).

Crikey, how did I complete ToB with them again?

Anyhoo, furthermore, he was using the Heartseeker, not Strongarm. I got mixed up with Robin Clym (another Ranger:Archer character, a soloist too).

Therefore...
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Base THAC0 : 0
Kit Bonuses : -09
Heartseeker+3: -13
QoPlenty : -15
PGIStone : -16
18 DEX : -18
5* : -21</pre>[/QUOTE]Hmmmm... I wonder the last 3 came from. It was too long ago to remember now.

By the way, unless you are roleplaying some cultist Archer that has sworn to use nothing but ranged attacks, they are capable of using Maces. ;)

And Quarterstaffs, and Warhammaers, etc... ...

An alternative for those who don't like the slow moving arrows is to remember that the archer's bonuses apply to all range weapons (yes, even a certain sling!) so for the few times you need high enchantment, you could switch to that.

I can also confirm that you get your correct ApR with GWW and the like with archers. I tested it using the archer's special attack to kill Aerie in one round (12th level of called shot adds -1 to strength of target and 10 hits puts Aerie to 0 for a stat kill). Due to the short duration of the strength drain and the time needed to invoke called shot and GWW, you can't get more than about 12 points of strength drain at a time with one archer. Not enough to kill warriors, although since the STR drain penetrates stoneskin, ironskin, and prot from missiles it could kill some mages. Of course with ray of enfeeblement, you can take down anyone.

You still cannot get around the PfMW and PfNM combo since your arrows are normal--no damage, and the STR effect is magical--PfMW blocks it.

Side note: I wish that dwarves could be rangers too--using the dwarven thrower with it's crushing damage would be so much fun!

Except that later in the game (anything more than halfway through Chapter 4, in fact), Archers have no way of casting Draw Upon Holy Might.

True. In fact....get a load of this moldy heap of gouda! Archers can even go for <u>super</u> cheese by eqipping Spectral Brand+5, using its Armor-piercing Strike, then picking up Heartseeker and casting its THAC0 bonus. Assuming they stack, that brings the Archer's THAC0 to -47. (Trying to work the 2nd Heartseeker into this would be impossible, because the Spectral Brand would have worn off by the time you were able to use the 2nd bow. Unless, of course, it was possible to put Improved Alacrity on a high-level Archer.) Kensai cannot abuse this cheese, since Heartseeker's THAC0 bonus only applies to Missile weapons.

Okay, cool! Hey, I'm actually glad to be wrong! Somebody slap me. (About the "can only display 1 missile per person:" So....what happens when you're firing 10 ApR with Gesen at Improved Jon, and he's teleporting all over the map? I'll find out in my current game.)

[ 01-09-2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

::slaps him::
(It's ok, I hit like a girl anyway)

[ 01-09-2004, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Illumina Drathiran'ar ]

Pfft, you could play through at least 70% of what SoA has to offer before you have to give up your Draw Upon Holy Might ;) Actually, I just remembered you could always use Potions of Mind Focusing to boost your DEX. 2 of them would be enough to get the maximum To Hit bonus, and they last 12 hours! I think just about every priest merchant in the game have loads of them.

Ok, the Kensai admits defeat! However, unless I'm mistaken, this would still *only* take the Archer down to -40 THAC0. Also, I missed that the Kensai can equip the Pale Green Ioun Stone to take his THAC0 down one notch, scoring him a tie with the Archer. Excluding this aforementioned and grievous use of cheese of course!

I would be interesting to see Irenicus being chased by about 300 bolts of lightning, even more so to observe what happens when they catch up.

[ 01-09-2004, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]