When you said "kensai thief dual...(a kensai wearing armor and using holy avenger...)" Um.... isnt the holy avenger only usable by paladins, or are you talking aout something else?

one of the rogue High Level Abilities in ToB is 'Use any Item' . . .

pretty powerful in itself as it allows the rogue to use, for example, paladin only weapons (and scrolls and wands and . . . ) but with a kensai->thief dual it even overrides the kensai restrictions allowing you to use armour, bracers, helmets etc.

i'm looking forward to it [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm going to volunteer the Assassin>Fighter to the cheese list as well.

Poison weapons, Fighter THACO, 7x Backstab and Assassination HLA...

All that is needed is an improved haste...

10 attacks with a 7X backstab multiplier.

My choices are:
Sorcerer
Kensai->Theif
Wizard Slayer->Thief
Kensai->Mage

Actually, for most classes it has less to do with the abilities themselves but how the player uses them. For example, the sorcerer is not inherently cheesy; it's just that they can exploit the spell system to their advantage (a wizard can do the same, but just doesn't have the number of castings that a sorcerer does). Either one can use unlimited spell exploits; it's really up to the player if they wish to exploit this or not. I played through with a sorcerer, and refused to take Mislead, Project Image, or Simulacrum; he was powerful, but not really cheesy. Use Any Item is the same way; if you use it to use wands, rings, scrolls, etc. then it is not really cheesy. However, if you use it to strap full plate on your kensai/thief (who chooses not use armor because of their philosophical system, as opposed to not knowing how to). I almost wish the ability was restricted to use with any item EXCEPT weapons and armor, just to avoid such gouda. Ranger/cleric is another fine example; if you restrict yourself to only cleric spells (other than a few very low level ranger spells that you would be able to cast from your ranger levels), then it is not cheesy at all. However, if you throw Iron Skins and cast Draw Upon Holy Might on your character, then you are crossing that line into areas of cheesiness. If the player chooses not to cross that line, they can; however, I do agree that having the option just sitting there to do so adds an incentive that shouldn't be there.

Oh, and the exceptions to the above are the Weimer classes (overbalanced shapeshifter and anti-paladin). They are beyond gouda.

You know, Nerull: I was just thinking about making a post like yours. Little bit moralistic here, a bit guru-talk there ;)

To give him his due, though, the Generic Archer is almost 100% fair--the only part that's a little unbalanced is that a Fighter Archer gains levels faster than a Ranger Archer, which means it always has a better THAC0, Called Shot, etc., and also gets I think an additional 6 HLAs.
The only way a Generic Archer can get <u>truly</u> cheesy is by Dualing to Mage.

To give him his due, though, the Generic Archer is almost 100% fair--the only part that's a little unbalanced is that a Fighter Archer gains levels faster than a Ranger Archer, which means it always has a better THAC0, Called Shot, etc., and also gets I think an additional 6 HLAs.
The only way a Generic Archer can get <u>truly</u> cheesy is by Dualing to Mage. </font>[/QUOTE]especially since, due to my experiments giving poison weapon to non assassins, i suspect that called shot, like poison weapon is an ability you get the higher benefits even if you are dualed to mage, and no longer progressing in the archer class...the ability i think works like this...if you are a certain level, like i think level 15 or so you get to drain strength, so even if you dualed at level 9, when your mage class reaches level 15, your called shot will drain strength...

now combine called shot at higher level with...TIMESTOP!!!

the cheese!!! not only is every attack automatically a hit under timestop, you can easily attribute drain dragons...

now then archer mages are powerful enough, what about archer thieves???

once you progress high enough, you can set up ambushes like no one's buisness...

a timetrap set up, then go to mr dragon, improve haste yourself, then sting him, so he follows you to the timetrap, gets frozen and quickly attribute drained to death..no fuss, no mess...

the only archer dual that isn't cheesy is archer cleric...hahahhahahah!!!

True, they do advance faster and get more HLA, but lose Stealth. It's still a little uneven, but I agree that it is probably the most balanced class he did (maybe it was the first one he did... ;) ). However, it does get cheesy with the dualclassing options, both the mage and thief. Then again, so does the kensai/mage and kensai/thief. Once again, it comes back to the player. I downloaded Tactics just to install that class, for two reasons:

</font>

1. I disagree that only humans, half-elves, and elves should be allowed to be best at archery/missile weapons (dwarvish and gnomish crossbowmen and halfling archers and slingers).</font>
2. To allow a slinger instead of bows/crossbows, but also a dart thrower.</font>

I agree with both you and Userunfriendly that dualclassing them is just nasty. Lots of cheese, both dualed to thief and mage. But I would just play it singleclassed (a halfling slinger). Slight jump in abilities over the ranger version but enough to make too much difference. Once again, up to the person to exercise some discipline, but having the option to go overbalanced is still out there.

Two questions...

PLaying a Ranger/Cleric...

Well, the ranger has access do druidic spell while de cleric has access to cleric spells (dohhh), but the ranger can't cast spells up to 4th circle, and the cleric surely can... SO will I have access to druidic spells of 5th, 6th and 7th circle?

I mean, will I be able to ironskin and summon fire elementals playing a cleric ranger?

If so, then its really really cheesy...


Second question...

Why is wizardslayer -> thief cheesy? I just don't get it...