I give it a rest when i feel like it, you're the one who keeps ranting and raving he should be released or put on trial. And that doesn't answer the question why you think he went to afghanistan, afraid you won't like your own answer ?

It's simple really, kinda like 1+1=2, he's Taliban and Taliban=guilty of just about anything i can think of=no fair trial/lots of pain/slow death.

I rest my case.

I give it a rest when i feel like it, you're the one who keeps ranting and raving he should be released or put on trial. And that doesn't answer the question why you think he went to afghanistan, afraid you won't like your own answer ?

It's simple really, kinda like 1+1=2, he's Taliban and Taliban=guilty of just about anything i can think of=no fair trial/lots of pain/slow death.

I rest my case. </font>[/QUOTE]I won't answer the question because I don't know that answer. How will I know the answer unless he's put on trial and whatever evidence there is against him is made public?

I'm not defending terrorism, I'm saying "give the guy his day in court". You're making unproven accusations based on speculation, simply because he apparently was in Afghanistan. Give the guy his due process, or let him go and let the Australian govt. give him his due process.

Here's a list of the people killed on Bloody Sunday -

Jackie (Jackie) Duddy (17). Shot in the chest in the car park of Rossville flats. Four witnesses stated Duddy was unarmed and running away from the paratroopers when he was killed. Three of them saw a soldier take deliberate aim at the youth as he ran.

Patrick Joseph Doherty (31). Shot from behind whilst crawling to safety in the forecourt of Rossville flats. Doherty was the subject of a series of photographs, taken before and after he died by French journalist Gilles Peress. Despite the evidence of "Soldier F" that he fired at a man holding and firing a pistol, Widgery acknowledged that the photographs showed Doherty was unarmed, and that forensic tests on his hands for gunshot residue proved negative.

Bernard McGuigan (41). Shot in the back of the head when he went to help Patrick Doherty. He had been waving a white handkerchief at the soldiers to indicate his peaceful intentions.

Hugh Pious Gilmore (17). Shot in the chest as he ran from the paratroopers on Rossville Street. Widgery acknowledged that a photograph taken seconds after Gilmore was hit corroborated witness reports that he was unarmed, and that tests for gunshot residue were negative.

Kevin McElhinney (17). Shot from behind whilst crawling to safety at the front entrance of the Rossville Flats. Two witnesses stated McElhinney was unarmed.

Michael Kelly (17). Shot in the stomach whilst standing near the rubble barricade in front of Rossville Flats. Widgery accepted that Kelly was unarmed.

John Pius Young (17). Shot in the head whilst standing at the rubble barricade. Two witnesses stated Young was unarmed.

William Noel Nash (19). Shot in the chest near the barricade. Witnesses stated Nash was unarmed and going to the aid of another when killed.

Michael McDaid (20). Shot in the face at the barricade as he was walking away from the paratroopers. The trajectory of the bullet indicated he was killed by soldiers positioned on the Derry Walls.

James Joseph Wray (22). Wounded then shot again at close range whilst lying on the ground. Witnesses who were not called to the Widgery Tribunal stated that Wray was calling that he was unable to move his legs before he was shot the second time.

Gerald Donaghy (17). Shot in the stomach whilst running to safety between Glenfada Park and Abbey Park. Donaghy was brought to a nearby house by bystanders where he was examined by a doctor. His pockets were turned out in an effort to identify him. A later police photograph of Donaghy's corpse showed nail bombs in his pockets. Neither those who searched his pockets in the house nor the British army medical officer (Soldier 138) who pronounced his death shortly afterwards say they saw any bombs. Donaghy had been a member of Fianna Éireann, an IRA-linked Republican youth movement. Paddy Ward, who gave evidence at the Saville Inquiry, claimed that he had given two nail bombs to Donaghy several hours before he was shot dead [1].

Gerald McKinney (35). Shot just after Gerald Donaghy. Witnesses stated that McKinney had been running behind Donaghy, and he stopped and held up his arms, shouting "Please Don't shoot!", when he saw Donaghy fall. He was then shot in the chest.

William McKinney (26). Shot from behind as he attempted to aid Gerald McKinney (no relation). He had left cover to try to help the older man.

John Johnston (59). Shot on William Street 15 minutes before the rest of the shooting started. Johnson died of his wounds 4½ months later, the only one not to die immediately or soon after being shot.

There are a number of "Bloody Sundays" in recent history.
Ireland has three of them. Oh joy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday


And here's what wikipedia says about U2's song:

Background, writing, and recording

"Sunday Bloody Sunday" was born from a guitar riff and lyric created by The Edge in 1982. As Bono and Ali Hewson honeymooned in Jamaica, The Edge worked on music for the band's upcoming album in Ireland. After some difficult songwriting sessions, The Edge was greatly depressed, feeling he was terrible at songwriting. He "channeled fear and frustration and self-loathing into a piece of music." As an outline developed, The Edge tried adding lyrics. His first attempts quickly set an anti-terrorist tone:

Don't talk to me about the rights of the IRA, UDA

The band has said it refers to the events of both Bloody Sunday (1972) and Bloody Sunday (1920) in Irish history but is not specifically about either event. It takes the standpoint of someone who is horrified by the cycle of violence in the province. In early attempts, Bono wanted to contrast the two events with Easter Sunday, but he has said that the band was too inexperienced at the time to fully reach that goal.

[ 11-29-2006, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

The problem with all of these statements is that until a court finds them to be true, they are only *allegations.* ALLEGATIONS. I agree that finding this true would be enough to at least keep him in jail through the end of the conflict -- and perhaps sentence him to many decades more -- without any other proof of wrongdoing (shooting, killing, etc.). But the problem is even these facts you have *assumed* as your premise are themselves NOT YET PROVEN TRUE.

This is what "habeas corpus" is all about. It means "produce the body." It's the people's right against the sovereign to demand that the government prove it has someone in custody, and at least has to right to hang onto them for the moment. It's to prevent just tossing someone who's on the wrong side politically into a cellar without a trial.

Just hold a trial to prove he was there, with them. Prove he trained with them. Then, fine -- hold him as long as you want. But, as of now there is no PROOF, only ALLEGATION. And you'll forgive me not buying what the government says is true. As a citizen it's my duty to doubt them and to make them prove the truth of their allegations. Always and forever.

[ 11-29-2006, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Yorick's got you dead to rights on this one, Johnny. Just PROVE he was Taliban. Hold a trial, show some pictures, have someone testify they saw him on the field of battle, have an impartial judge/jury decide he was Taliban. But right now under our law he is nothing other than someone *accused* of being Taliban. The trial may be so easy it's almost a formality -- but it's a central frikkin formality to our way of life.

When and if they come around a point the finger at me, I at least want the chance to prove to them they're wrong.

How about the letter to his dad, in the link I provided, talking about his training with the Taliban. I think he did more damage to himself than anybody else need do. Once again, I come back to why we have to prove he was captured on a battlefield. When did everybody have to start proving that prisoners taken during combat were taken during combat? Or just after, for that matter. It wasn't done in WW2, or Viet Nam, or any of the conflicts that I am aware of.
@Yorick, yeah, I caught that a bit later, my bad...*whistle*...
In reading through the articles of the Geneva Conventions, it isn't indicated in there that all prisoners taken in a conflict should be tried to see if they are really on the other side of the conflict...
Yes, all the charges listed are just that, charges. But, being detained with other soldiers from the other side of a conflict is not an allegation, nor is it a charge, and nor is it illegal. It may not be very smart, depending on what side you choose in a conflict, but it's not illegal. Not illegal should be equal to no trial required. What, if any, is the Burden of Proof in the Geneva Conventions?

Robert you could pick up anyone during combat. Not all are going to be fighting against you. If it's so open and shut though, he should be brought to trial immediately. The fact that it hasn't, is what leads us to start asking questions.

Means nothing other than something for us to circle jerk about until and unless a jury looks at it and other evidence and decides his guilt. Unless you and I are a juror in the case, our opinion on that letter mean jack squat.

Once we dicided to imprison him for that reason for years at a time.

Yes, but let's think about this. The "War on Terror" is ambiguous, and defined to be what is basically a "permanent war" as any "war vs. ideology" is. The "enemy" is easily confused with civilians, the war WILL take decades and we simply CAN NOT TRUST the word of our government that foreign citizens nabbed on foreign soil and spirited around the world are "enemy combatants" or anything else. Bring them quickly and speedily before an impartial tribunal, convict them, and DO IT THE RIGHT WAY.

[ 11-29-2006, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

The funny thing is that we here are squabbling and bitching wheter or not he should stand trial and what his rights are, or should be, while he and his jolly band of buddies wouldn't hesitate a single second to slit our collective throats, and don't think for one second i'm overreacting.