I have seen a lot of people on the board in this discussion blame guns for murders and violent crimes. I have an intresting side note to bring to thier attention. Some of the greatest killers of modern times didnt touch a firearm to kill ANYONE!! There is Ted Bundy , who bludgeoned his victims. There is Albert Desalvo who strangled his victims. There is Albert Fish also a strangler. There is Jefrey Dahmer who drugged his victims and killed them in a variety of ways. There is John Wayne Gacey who strangled all of his victims. There is "pee wee" gaskins who used a knife. There is Edmund Kemper , another knife killer. There is Otis Toole and Henry Lucas who used whatever was handy to kill people. The list just goes on and on and if added up just the people I have listed have killed probably at least a THOUSAND people betwen all of them. The point I am trying to make is that GUNS are not the problem , PEOPLE are !!!

Umm Donut...if you comit murder...you ARE dy definition a murderer, wether you are family or not. Second, where did you get the statistic that most "Firearm" murders are caused by family members? I think if you check your figures that there may be a high incidence of family killing family but that the methods of murder are not usually firearms, though they too have been used for this act.

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They are not criminals before they commit the crime. And you are misquoting me - I never used the word 'firearm'.[/QB][/QUOTE]
Did I misquote you? We ARE discussing firearms here....or rather were. I have given it up since Im out of energy and interest [img]smile.gif[/img] the advantage you youngsters have over us old fogeys...

How so? that doesnt make any sense...you could arm every police person with his own M1 main battle tank and it wouldnt stop criminals from committing crimes, the power of their weapon has little or nothing to do with how many crimes a person commits. The people are not committing crimes because they have guns. They are committing crimes because they have socio-pathic type tendancies, issues or concerns, the gun is only one method of arming yourself, they could as easily have pipe bombs, zip guns (home made weapons) knives, machette's swords, clubs, golf clubs, a car or any one of a billion other things that can be used to kill people.</font>[/QUOTE]Magik I didnt mean that it would reduce crime rates. I was just concerned for the safety of law enforcement and civilians. Who is more likely to take someone down with them when the cops raid a house or the swat team tries to rescue hostages. A guy with a beretta or a guy with a semi automatic rifle?

I wouldnt go so far as to shoot them but if you hate this country enough to burn the flag you should definately move the hell out.

<font color=orange>Well since everyone is throwing statistics around here, I went out and found a few of my own.

From www.geottmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010301.html
In the International Violent Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland It was found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations.
26% of English citizens (1 in 4) have been victimized by violent crime.

Care to guess who was first?... No... It wasn't the US... It was Australia at 30%.

The US didn't even make the top 1o list of industrialize nations whose citizens where victims of crime. There are some more interesting statistics there as well. Burglary rates in England and Wales were among the highest recorded. Australia and Denmark where higher than England and Wales and all where higher than the US.

Here are some more victimization rates:
Holland 25%
Sweden 25%
Canada 24%
US 21%
These statistics were reported in the London Telegraph according to this article.

WorldDailyNet (whoever they are) reported in March 2000 "that since Australia's widespread gun ban, violent crime had increased in the country. WND reported that, although lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story:
- Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent.
- Assault are up 8.6 percent.
- Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent.
- In the Australian State of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent."

There are some others. I'd like to point out that all the countries mentioned above have far more stringent firearms laws than does the US. We do have a much higher rate of homicide, but not violent crime over all apparently.

BTW on another matter concerning the Swiss, here is a quote concerning weapons kept in the home.

"Switzerland keeps only a small standing army, and relies much more heavily on its militia system for national defense. This means that most able-bodied civilian men of military age keep weapons at home in case of a national emergency. These weapons are fully automatic, military assault rifles, and by law they must be kept locked up. Their issue of 72 rounds of ammunition must be sealed, and it is strictly accounted for."

This came from www.korpios.org/resurgent/l-switerland.htm.

And for some more information on the ease of obtaining a Legal Machine Gun in the US. The Actual cast to obtain a license for a MG is $500, not $5000. However after you fork over the $500 expect a 3 to 8 month background check by the FBI. Those numbers are probably not correct since 9/11. Once you have passed the FBI background check, you will have to fork over at least another $1500 for the weapon. That's one of the reasons that machine guns aren't favored weapons among criminals. Way to expensive to get a hold of. Machine guns are held, legally by only a tiny percentage of the population.
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[ 05-21-2002, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]

ROFL I couldnt help but laugh at this, Magik you are not the only older one on the board contrary to what you may think, try checking up on Donuts age ;)

guns are for cowards,haveing said this,true courage is beeing able to look a man in the eyes right before you take his life...quotaed from some poor SOB right before i blasted him between his eyes

but taliesin don't forget these guys are not going to buy them legally.they'll buy them from chinese army gun runners.
don't forget the big daddy of them all,the russian andrei chikatillo.

Well, since I am a soldier, I don't condone the use of firearms
but neither do I disagre with there use either. Since it is my duty to fight I will. But not unless I have to or I am needed to. In the right hands firearms are fine.

The who? I've never heard of 'em</font>[/QUOTE]You must have heard of them! Roager Daltrey, Pete Townshend! They were a popular beat combo in the 60's & 70's. Ooooh! We won't get fooled agian Oh No!

:D Sorry!