<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Since most of what I wrote was from personal observation I have no problem with printing my perception. Call it stereotyping if you want...however, just because it is a stereotype does not mean that it is not true for the majority.....on second thought...yeah what Timber said.
</font>

My apologies, I thought you were making a reference to the culture in general rather than being specific about toilet practices.

That said, as you are probably aware, middle-easterners only ever use their left hand for 'dirty tasks' - so you can be sure when the food is passed to you (they only ever use the right hand for that) or when they shake hands that you are not coming into contact with anything unpleasant.

Unfortunately, in the west, no such practice exists in the west and when you shake hands with someone or are handed food, chances are that they are giving you a nice biological surprise (according to studies most of the germs are not killed by the hand-washing practice that most people call 'washing' after using the toilet facilities).
*That* is not very hygenic either...Shake hands anyone? Yuck!

No, my comments are more than fully supported by the facts and by the statistics.

Let's compare Syria to the United States, shall we?

In the United States, you are 5.8 times more likely to be murdered; women are so well respected that they are 110 times more likely to be raped there; you are 53999 times more likely to be the victim of theft; your car is 153 times more likely to be stolen; you are 46 times more likely to be burgled... Shall I go on or would you like to peruse the Interpol data yourself?

http://www.interpol.int/Public/Stati...00/usa2000.pdf
http://www.interpol.int/Public/Stati.../Syria1999.pdf

Oh PLEASE! That's no more legal in the middle east as hanging the nearest blackman on a tree while dancing around a burning cross - it happens but the state *will* punish anyone engaging in such illegal activity.

Then you'll be happy to know that 'deodorant' and perfume were arabic creations and its not such a western practice afterall. You are right in saying that the use of deodorant does not prevent frequent washing - but it often provides an excuse to avoid frequent washing! Very few people actually need deodorant - most folk in even the most extreme climates could get away with washing twice a day. Afterall the unpleasant smell is caused by the action of bacteria causing the sweat to start rotting - and it takes time for the sweat to become stale in this manner.

OK johnny, an experiment for you. Go out into the street and find yourself a muslim neighbourhood (I don't know what city you live in, but if you're within the Ranstad it should prove no problem).
1. Count the number of women walking behind their husbands
2. Go to the mosque as people are coming/going - count the number of women sitting in the back seat while hubby sits in the front - actually why not count the number of women driving while hubby is a passenger.

When you have completed this experiment, you might come to the shocking conclusion that I was right - those practices were not religious in nature but cultural. Afterall, if Islam bans women from walking beside her husband, you'll never witness it within the muslim community on the streets of Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Den Haag, Utrecht...


[i]Anyway, apart from the fact that this is off-topic, I won't engage in this thread anymore because it is now turning into a 'my culture is better than your culture' debate when in reality, each culture has something to learn from the other. The question that folk have to ask themselves is:

<font color="#C4C7D7">"Are you big enough to look, listen and learn - or only small enough to believe in a fallacious ideal of cultural supremacy?"</font>

heh heh. I guess we're just diametrically opposed then Magik. However, since I was raised with 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all', I'll just hold my peace in relation to your beliefs and attitudes... ;)

Erm...Skunk, i don't have time for such experiments, i have a job to do as well. [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D

I live in Utrecht, and there are indeed a lot of muslims here, of all kinds of origin. Some of them have indeed "modernised" themselves, and don't walk like i said before, some women don't even have their hair covered anymore, but the majority of them still act as i described in public. I don't have to experiment for that, i can see it all around me when i go outside.

Skunk, you still not have told us of your travels in the MidEast. What countries have you visited and for what length of time? How often do you interact with the muslim community where you live? What training/classes in the faith have you taken?
I make no claims to being an expert, yet I know enough not to compare rape statistics between the US and Syria. In Syria, a woman admitting to rape is confessing to adultery (if married) or immoral behavior (if still living under her father's roof). In either case the woman is subject to penalties up to death for participating in unsanctioned sex. Rape cases are only reported if the husband or father wants legal remedy against the known rapist. If you really insist, I could dig out my old cultural anthropology texts dealing with MidEastern cultural norms. Then again you could also talk with my wife's family who reaffirmed this information. I will admit that my information comes from a small data base in this instance. They only lived there for the first 34 years of their life and have been living in the US for the past 30 years. I have much more exposure and study concerning the situation than this but sincerely do want to know your personal experience of the MidEast and the muslim faith.

Good show, Skunk, on reasoning and argument. But, I think your statistics are of no use.

You cited Interpol data using total numbers of each crime. Now, unless you did some division to account for population differences, your "XX times as likely..." is incorrect, being founded on totals data and not per capita data.

[quote]Originally posted by The Hierophant:

Quote:

Originally posted by MagiK: [qb] heh heh. I guess we're just diametrically opposed then Magik. However, since I was raised with 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all', I'll just hold my peace in relation to your beliefs and attitudes... ;)

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
I suppose you are quite right on all counts here. However...if we didn't openly and honestly discuss our differences/thoughts/beliefs...then there would truely never be any hope for any meeting of minds or coming to learn another view.....
</font>

[ 08-26-2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font color=orange>I'd like to way in on the culture thing. It's been my experience have visited Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War in 1991 and interacting with the local population, that much, if not all of what Magik said is true. However I could get around much of the cultural differences except for one thing. Treatment of women. When I went to Riyhad on R and R, I was down in the Huge Market place they have there and I noticed one several block section that had a sea of women and children in it. I happen to ask a local merchant that spoke english what was happening? Was it a womens' conference or something? He laughted and said "No the are... How you call it... cast off... Divorced." He went on to explain that they had been cast out of their homes along with their children and that they lived on the street begging for food and money. I have a friend here at work, that graduated with a degree in Middleastern Studies from the University of Tennessee. I might add he has traveled there many times on Vacations. He told me that in order for a man to divorce his wife, all he has to do is step into the street and declare "I divorce you" three times and it's done.

Another time, we had two Suadi's approach one of our officers in my Section, and his driver (who happened to be a blonde female). They wished to buy her and offered the equavilant of $15,000 US. This shook Missy (her name) up after the Captian told her what they wanted. Later on they joked about it. She's was a rather fit girl and she figured the Captain should have taken their money and then she would kick their asses for them and then the Captain and her split the money. This happened at King Khalid Military City.

Needless to say, I don't have a very high opinion of the treatment of women by men in the Middleast.

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Skunk: I haven't actually made it a scientific study here..but I see arabic women following their men everywhere here...as well as sitting in the back seat of the car...of course these people are probably mostly diplomats from the middle east (this is Washington DC) so maybe they haven't had a chance to "americanize" yet and can't really be counted as the norm for "Islamic/Arabic" peoples in thsi country...since those who immigrate here want to take part in our culture and society and aren't quite so primed to remain too rooted in the old one.
</font>

Sorry johnny, but mostly skunk was correct in his post. The muslim religious scripts do not mention that women should walk behind their husbands, and it is not always so in Arabic countries. ;) And whereas you would stare yourself blind on the woman's behind ( [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) that was not the case several centuries ago. The perfect body and what was looked upon have changed so many times and still do. Note also that Skunk meantions to shield in crowds. ;) There's another cultural difference. Men in western countries wouldn't mind bumping into a woman just to make her notice your there, and some go even farther than that. In that the Middle east hasn't caught up on you yet. ;)

However I do disagree that there are no religious traditions when it come to women being inferior to men. That is mentioned a lot in Arab, as well as Christian, scripts.

OK, it seems we're getting slightly off topic. I think I once more will point out that no one will be able to convinve another that one side in this dreadful drama is innocent. So let's leave all the petty squablle and get back to the discussion!