Thiefprowess, nobody is questioning your helpfulness on this forum, you help has been noticed and is appreciated, but you seem intent on continuing to propagate this issue. This is NOT about winning or losing an argument. You have said your 2c. Yorick has said his 2c. You both disagree with each other. You move on. It's all quite simple to me. Continuing on beyond the point of sensible, civilized discussion is a sign of either naivete, immaturity or ego. (This applies to EVERYONE - not just you.)

If Yorick, Neb and Deathcow want to start up a petition to get the gypsy reference off NWN, then LET THEM. They have the right to do whatever they want to do, as long as they don't break our ToS. I commend them for taking action in something they obviously strongly believe in.

In FACT, after all the furore that has been caused with this, and all the inspirational, passionate statements in defense of social justice, I would EXPECT to see some action from the people involved in the form of a petition or something - otherwise it's all just a load of hot air, isn't it. Like I mentioned before I am happy to provide the necessary contact details at Bioware and Infogrames. I will wait for someone to ask me for this information. As Yoda said, do or do not - there is no try. ;)

Now let's put an end to all this and let everyone get on with enjoying NWN in their own way. [img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT: I just noticed you said that was your closing post, thiefprowess - I appreciate your maturity and have edited my post accordingly to reflect this. Thank you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-08-2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

kinda make us feel like we are in gamefaqs.com message board right? where everybody just bash everyone.

<font color="#0077cc"> At the risk of being contentious [img]smile.gif[/img] I like the game, even with the 1 henchman limit. (I use them all and shuffle them in and out as needed (thats what the rock of recall is for) Not to mention I have all the nifty goodies each of them gives you.

As for this overt racism I keep hearing about. I don't see it...I haven't seen a single reference to Gypsies or Roma or Romani or tomamto or what have you, I do have a halfling rogue though. Last I checked there were no real halflings in the world running around.
I think to find this game racist, you have to want to take offence, in which case you can never be satisfied because if you look at anything long and hard enough you will find some thing to complain about.

Well thats just my buck and a half about NWN, its a good game. </font>

That was totally uncalled for Tegoyo, and I would like an apology. I was raising the possibility - based on the information in the articles, together with the presented opinions of Fionn - of evidence of propoganda or a cultural "blind eye" rather than anything racial.

So in answer to your question Thiefnoprowess, I'm not talking about American Germans. Keep your shirt on. I'm talking about Germans in Germany who may or may not (how would I know, it's an assumption) have been influenced by this governmental policy.

How is that racist? I am against racism! That's the whole point of this!!!

Secondly, racism exists. Turning a blind eye to it doesn't make it go away. The negative stereotype will still be reinforced even (and especially if) people aren't aware of it. The existence of it is the problem, not the discussion.

I'm not sure why you're champing at the bit about this discussion here in this thread thief other than it being sour grapes. This is an evolved discussion regarding NWN and belongs here. Flow is a beautiful part of human discussion. So stop trying to censor it and just let it flow. Hit the back button if you don't like the thread. No-one's forcing you to read and respond. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Downunder, I never for once dreamed it was anything insidious. It seems like ignorance and misconception fathered the choice.

Memnoch, very well. I'll see if I can draft something and take it from there. Thanks for your encouragement and warnings. [img]smile.gif[/img]

MagiK, "Gypsie" is a character class (Rogue subclass) you can choose at startup. Don't be suggesting it isn't there, when all of us have seen it. :D

Finally I like bioware. I'm a huge fan of the games they make and would hate to see them get shut down over something this simple. If anything, alerting them to this would be helpful, rather than the scenario of them being sued retroactively years later for company closing damages. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-08-2002, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

*sigh* Roma or tomatos. What a great guy you are MagiK. Try belittling a people not so oppressed and it might be funny.... ;)

Would you make the same joke about what African Americans call themselves? Or Jews?

Glad you enjoy the game though. Have a good one. [img]smile.gif[/img]

*sigh* Roma or tomatos. What a great guy you are MagiK. Try belittling a people not so oppressed and it might be funny.... ;)

Would you make the same joke about what African Americans call themselves? Or Jews?

Glad you enjoy the game though. Have a good one. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]It seems like a lot of people don't really know where the gypsy thing comes from...

EDIT: There is no "e" in Gypsy...but I want to put it there. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 07-08-2002, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Deathcow ]

For those of you who don't know, this is what the whole Gypsy = Thief topic is about. Gypsy is a PACKAGE for the Rogue class. Description below...

The gypsy is a vagabond, traveling from town to city and back again on a seasonal migration. They make their way through illegal means and cross paths with local thieves' guilds when they do.

It's easy to see how a Gypsy could take offense to that.

Sorry, Yorick, definately no apology from me. Maybe you read again what you wrote and maybe you apologise to Fionnguala MacMorna.

*sigh* Roma or tomatos. What a great guy you are MagiK. Try belittling a people not so oppressed and it might be funny.... ;)

Would you make the same joke about what African Americans call themselves? Or Jews?

Glad you enjoy the game though. Have a good one. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#ff3333"> Being of decent from a group that was slaughtered right along with the Jews and Roma in WWII I feel fairly comfortable making light of the subject. As I said, if you WANT to find a reason to take offense you will FIND reason to take offense, it is time for people to quit being such pansies and haveing a little backbone. Being called a pollack, a dego, wop, Kraut, Hebe or any other racial epithet should go right in the box with the "sticks and stones" poems for 1st graders. Sheesh. Lets all grow up and learn not to be so touchy about crap that really doesnt matter. (name calling doesnt.)

Aside from dissing my light hearted and cavalier remark about tomatos you didn't tell me where the Gypsies are being maligned in the game...granted Im only up to chapter 3 but I havent heard or read any references so far. </font>

<font color="#ff3333"> Whups!! Thanks, it isnt so much in game that it appears then..I was looking in the wrong place...it is only in the character creation that you find this particular thing..good enough glad you told me and now I see the reason for taking offense.......As for the description....granted I haven't had a thesis level indoc to the Romani culture but if you take what is written in the character description and write it up in a non-Politicaly Correct way...soounds like everything I have read about them. Not saying all the bands were that way....just the Romani code of ethics were somewhat...outside the bounds for the rest of established cultures.

Anyway thanks, wish Yorick had just told me that. Anyway I still think people worry about stereo types way too much, and I say this as a partial polock that grew up in a place that didn't appreciate the Polish heritage.
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