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And I know I'm NOT inferior. I just tend to get personally offended when someone thinks they can talk down to me to try to make me feel that way. I treat everyone equally until they give me a reason not to - through rudeness, for example. I don't think I have EVER tried to make someone feel I was superior to them just because I didn't agree with them. It's not in my nature. And by the same token, I tend to 'buck up' when someone tries to make me feel he/she is superior. We all have different views and are entitled to them. ------------------ [This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 10-10-2001).] |
I've always had an inferiority complex, but I'm a lot better. I had a boss who really helped me with. Makes me wish I never left that job. My morale has been down a lot lately which doesn't help! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif
Mark |
I don't understand why everyone is so upset about us getting involved where someone asks us to and we agree with them. We fought Iraq for invading Kuwait. Kuwait asked us. Most Iraqis seem to support Saddam. If we had not stepped in, I think Saudi would have been next on the list for conquest. Between Israel and Palestine, Israel holds more similarly to our values and government. We have to support democracy over other more oppressive governments by nature, don't you think? Once again, Israel asked us. I pesonally don't think that Palestine WANTS to stop fighting. They've been fighting as long as history. Osama is already wanted for previous crimes, so whether or not there is rock solid proof that this was personally his doing is irrelavent. The towers are the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. Most of the world seems to support us routing this dangerous man and the oppressive Taliban. Why don't you?
A note about my previous jibes. I've grown up with heated conversation containing jibes my entire life. Father, brothers, freinds, we all use them and don't really pay much attention to them. We occasionally laugh at a really good one and continue. So, I may be a bit quick to throw a dart if I feel pricked by a comment. It's a way to throw a bit of humor, cutting though it may be, into an otherwise serious conversation. Kind of a cocky comic relief if you will. Is this wrong? I see plenty of it going around besides me. I've even seen plenty of profanity around. Even I don't use profanity. ------------------ Member of ORT Official royal toad! Ribbit! Ribbet I say! The true secret to happiness is not having what you want, it's wanting what you have! |
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As far as I know, the outrages and atrocities that are practised on the Afghani people by the Taliban are not rooted in Islamic law. However, as Christianity has done throughout its long history, it is easy for unscrupulous men to gain and keep power by a convenient interpretation of so called holy injunctions. [/QUOTE] Ummm... The Taliban's ENTIRE government, all laws included, is 100% based on their interpretation of the Koran. There were no Tvs in the Koran, so no people should have a TV for example. The Koran says women should be covered, which is interpreted by most countries and not wear revealing clothing, but by the Taliban as completely covered with no skin showing anywhere. The entire government is based on their interpretation of Islam. For the rest, ok, what you seem to be saying is that terrorism happen because extremists hate the west and the concept of democracy and want everyone to accept Islam. My own view is that terrorism happens because people who are living in often appalling conditions throughout the world see the West (represented by America because it is the biggest and most extreme target) as being somehow to blame for their condition, and want to a. wake up their attention and b. make them suffer for their actions. Now, does that view have any basis in fact or doesn?t it? [/QUOTE] It does indeed have some basis, but it is not the principal cause. The people living in the horrid conditions are not generally the ones committing the terrorist acts, nor the ones so angry at the west. since he's the most visible right now, use Bin Ladin as an example. He's filthy stinking rich! Does he use his money to help out any of those poor suffering people in his country? now. He uses it to fund his terrorist camps and campaigns to further his spread of his form of Islam. Do the Taliban truly care for the common people of Afghan.? Not from any measure I've ever seen and I've followed then for longer than this crisis has been going on. So by looking at the evidence before us I would have to say that your points, though valid, are very minor ones in the whole picture. Well, take a look at Saudi Arabia. The regime there has no respect for human rights at all, and continues to abuse its people. Washington supports the regime in Saudi, and Arabs know this. Why does Washington continue to support a regime with so little care for human rights? It is asking for trouble. Saudis grow up under this harsh rule, - which their leadership blames on the West (thus diverting attention from its own role). Certainly the West holds a share of blame ? for supporting the repressive regime in the first place. A breeding ground for anti-western terrorists, if ever I saw one. [/QUOTE] This is a very good point, and I agree with much of it. I don't believe it's much of a breeding ground for terrorists...the country couldn't handle Bin Laden and his ways and exiled him. We can't just go around attacking every government we don't entirely like (otherwise we'd attack our own http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif). With Saudi we're trying to set an example and hope they change over time, and indeed they are, admittedly slowly. Would it be better to end support of them and let a new regime take them over, that could be drastically worse, or better to work with the one in place and try to improve the conditions for the people? In Palestine, the Palestinians know that Israel is nothing without America. The US provides the tools that the Israelis use against the Palestinian population. The creation of the state of Israel was accomplished under the rule of the gun and the bayonet, and Britain played its part enthusiastically. Right or wrong, it happened. But for the Israelis to continue to extend their settlements further and further outwards from the original areas is wrong, without any shadow of a doubt, at least imho. The Palestinians respond to the Israeli attempts to extend their share of the land. Of course they do. Wouldn?t you? Their lives are hell. This is great breeding ground for terrorists who resent America. [/QUOTE] The US used to supply the arms to Israel, and still does to an extent, but Israel is fully capable of producing it's own weapons and has been for some time now. You are absolutely right that Israeli expansion is wrong. The government does not condone this at all. This entire battle has been going on for that one city since the days of Jacob and Esau though, and both sides refuse to listen to reason and maintain a peace. It does seem like this would be a breeding ground for terrorism, but curiously, there aren't many reports of Palestinian terroristsm against any country other than Israel. I attribute this to the fact that they really aren't a malicious people. What we see if terrorists from other countries using Palestine as their excuse to wreak chaos. As you yourself have made the point, American intervention throughout the Middle East is never disinterested. Like the rest of the West, the US depends on oil, which is its life blood. The history of American intervention in the Middle East is a history of protecting their vested interest. American intervention in Afghanistan against the Soviets has had dire consequences, for example. After funding and arming the Taliban, acting in concert with Pakistan, America just fucked off and left them to it, after the Soviet threat was vanquished. A little more thought and a little less haste to be out of there might have worked wonders. But no, vested interest protection accomplished, off we go, bye bye. [/QUOTE] Oil is a big issue. However, I wonder if it's as large an issue as it appears on the surface. If we adopted a stance of complete noninterference in all things middle eastern, there would be no reason for whatever governments were in control to not sell us oil. It's hard to be a wealthy sheik when all you have is a lot of unsold oil setting around, and America isn't getting on your nerves, so might as well take their money, if you get my point. The US involvement in Afghanistan was a huge screw up, that's for sure. Amidst the fears of an ever expanding communist juggernaut we not only supplied the rebels with arms, our secret service formed the original "terrorist camps" and taught them gorilla and terrorist tactics. Chalk up a US mistake. We should have stayed involved and helped them for the new government...but it wasn't really as simple as that. The reason our actions were like that in the first place was so that no proof of US involvement could be leveled by the Soviets. If we had openly helped to establish the new government after USSR was ousted it could have led to WW3. We weren't just callously abandoning them. (As I?m sure you are aware, there have been conflicts in which America has NOT intervened, - due to the fact it has no vested interest. I?m fine with America NOT intervening, by the way ? I don?t believe it is down to the US to go around sorting out the rest of the world. I believe all nations need to unite and pool resources in order to stop abuses of human rights where there is a clear need to do so ? after proper consideration and debate. Some of the elements needed for such a united peace keeping body are already in place, however, the problems of welding them into a coherent and cohesive whole are almost overwhelming. But it must be done, if our race is to move forward in amity.) [/QUOTE] This is true, but I must also point out that there are conflicts in which we have intervened when we had no vested interest, particularly in central America. I don't really see a lot of gain in our involvement in Bosnia either. I agree with the need for a multinational organization to protect human rights and keeps peace between the nations, and the UN is developing into that spot. But it is relatively new in the scheme of things, and sometimes it looks entirely too much to the US for leadership. There are a lot of reasons for this, not least among them that if the populace views the action taken as a mistake it can be blamed on the US and not the government of that particular country. The US makes a nice scapegoat for nearly everyone. The West?s overwheening arrogance, coupled with its assumption that its way is best also plays a big part in Arab resentment. Globalisation (driven largely by American and European vested interests) is homogenising cultures throughout the world, and the world loses much by its doing so. In the UK, American culture rules ok. McDonalds, Starbucks and a host of other franchises. The US way of doing business, with its lack of emphasis on worker rights and conditions (I am here comparing with other European countries such as Holland and the Scandinavian countries.) is here to stay, it looks like. The coca cola culture. I find it bland and boring, generally speaking, although as with anything else, there are also good things to have come out of globalisation. The increased ability to communicate that we have, for example, through media such as the internet. [/QUOTE] on this we are going to simply have different opinions. I've been to the UK and I definitely wouldn't say you are overrun with 'american culture' And people equating American culture with fast food restaurants and coca cola are simply misguided because they have some products like these in heir country and that's where they come from. Personally I can't stand McDonalds http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif Our culture runs much, much deeper than that, people just don't look beyond the obvious to see it. As far as our worker conditions... I suppose that depends. I think that on the whole we have excellent opportunities and conditions for workers. It's up to each individual person to decide how much he/she wants to accomplish and how good their lifestyle may be. Most impoverished that I see here tend to not have a very good sence of budget when it comes to buying luxury items versus the thinga that will let them have a healthy, provided for existance. You of course have your right to your view on these issues of our culture, and if you perceive the US in this light I'm sure many others do as well. But I'll continue to argue that it is not our fault if people don't care to look beyond the skim of glittering luxuries we have to get to know us how we really are. But yes, freedom is a wonderful thing, and there is no denying that in many cases, we in the west have more freedom than in other parts of the world. However, there are different definitions of freedom ? freedom to work 9-5 at a job you hate, freedom to be mugged in the street, freedom to eat crap that will poison your body, freedom to watch material on tv that will poison your soul, freedom to be pressured by adverts 24 x 7 that are telling you your body and way of life are just not good enough, freedom to define yourself by your possessions, rather than who you are, freedom to live lonely in a city full of people... etc etc. I?m not west bashing here. I love living in the West, and we have many freedoms which I for one do not wish to give up! But we don?t have a perfect society by any manner of means, and the freedoms we have do have their down side. I just wanted to mention a few of the more negative aspects, just so that you might have an idea of what other cultures might NOT want of what we have to offer. [/QUOTE] Yes, we have problems, there is no doubt of that. But I've never met one single person who has immigrated here who didn't believe that he was indeed blessed for the experience, and most I've talked to say that even with it's problems they are MUCH safer, healthier and living better here than they were in their old country.. I think this is a culture where you can make of yourself whatever you have the will and the ability to make yourself, and if you become a victim of these freedoms, the first place to start looking is within yourself for changes. THEN you can go out and look to change the rest. Anyway, that?s my two cents worth. (More like a dollar, actually, sorry it?s so long. And I still haven?t said even part of what I wanted to... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ) [/B][/QUOTE] I agree , there not enough room to ever get everything said. Very good post, I enjoy debating with you http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Prime |
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I am going to look in more depth at Islam, as Muslim friends have a rather different take on the first set of points you raised. However, I have debated the issue of women's rights with them, and there is no doubt in my mind that I know where I would rather be standing! I also wish to find out more about Islam and the history of Islam in any case, as I think such knowledge will become more and more relevant over the next months and years. On the Israel question - I read a very good 'booklet' on the web, by a group called Jews for Justice, which made some very good points. The authors made the point that as they were Jewish, they were not anti-semitic, just wished to state Palestine's case, which they felt to have a basis in fact. The whole history of the conflict was covered right from way back to biblical times. Interesting. For the rest - we do have a rather different take on this, and it is unlikely that there will be a meeting of minds! You express yourself in a very gentle, non agressive, thoughtful and friendly way, however, - it is a positive pleasure to disagree with you! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif I would like to say one thing though - and that is I don't have a 'beef' with America exclusively. When it comes to exploitation, Europe has done far more than its fair share, in fact, in my view, the many of the divisions between rich and poor that wrack the world today have their origins in the colonialism of much of the world by Europe. My belief is that America has picked up that baton in many ways, as its wealth and power on the world stage enables it to act as a driving force and shaper of the world economy to a great extent, to benefit itself. You may or may not agree with that. However, as an anti-globalist activist (strictly non violent!) I have done a fair amount of research on this subject and am satisfied of the validity of my viewpoint. That doesn't mean I hate or dislike America or Americans, by the way! I have visited America three times, and will do so again, without a doubt. And I have met some fabulous American people. Like all peoples everywhere, there are wonderful people, and there are those a little less wonderful. C'est la vie!! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ------------------ http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati |
Please name a dominant world power anywhere, any time, throughout the history of civilization that has not exerted its political and ecconomic influence in its own self-interest, and in the interests of its allies.
Please name a dominant world power anywhere, any time, throughout the history of civilization other than the U.S. that ever engineered a system of government centrally founded on the principle of liberty, and specifically individual freedoms. Please name a dominant world power anywhere, any time, throughout the history of civilization prior to the U.S. that has genuinely sought to promote free societies throughout the world. Whatever harm the U.S. has done, eg, kicking the Native Americans off their land, allowing slavery, supporting dictators during the Cold War in order to stem the advance of totalitarianism, and so on, please just remember to compare it with all of the 'top dog' predecessors throughout history. The contributions to the world by ancient civilizations such as the Romans were great indeed but they were absolutely ruthless. The British empire, for all they brought to the world still maintained their power through subjegation of those who are weaker. The U.S.'s gift to the world has been a pretty damned successful working model for society living self-responsibly and cooperatively in freedom. I think that is something far greater, and more truly good, than architecture, art, an educational system, or aquaducts and plumbing, etc. |
Ace Flashheart, American has done wrong or not in the past has nothing to do with current situation. for now, they are not acting arrogent, they are acting their rights
stop using the words "you are blind" blah blah blah. I know, it sounds cool, and deep, though in fact it only makes your post look empty and unconvincing |
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BTW I share a lot of your views about looking at the causal factors behind the attacks as part of a long-term solution, so don't take my comments as a criticism of your perspective. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif FWIW I try to take every case on its merits. I hate bandwagons. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/smiles/eek.gif ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif [This message has been edited by Memnoch (edited 10-10-2001).] |
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------------------ http://members.aol.com/amandaisflirt...s/tradesig.jpg Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar LH Member "I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****"... Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!) [This message has been edited by Liliara (edited 10-11-2001).] |
Gee, you're so right! Terrorists should be allowed to attack us with impunity! What are we thinking trying to protect ourselves? The evil cowards that attacked us have nothing to do with Islam. The Muslims that I know worship a benign deity. If the scum that attacked us without provacation think they are serving Allah, they are not only cowards, but ignorant as well. Any sane person than is not infuriated by these acts of war are just as bad as the evil godless scum that perpetuated them.
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