<font color=orange>We should both go to the Library and check out Kleck's book and read it. I know I haven't. I have heard him quoted a lot though, by both sides of this issue. I know that he was originally commissioned to do this book by the antis. They were extremely unpset when his conclusions didn't match theirs.</font>

mmm... i agree there is a grey zone about Kleck research. Maybe he's saying that 2.5 million people successfully defended themsleves with firearms, the NRA text is just not clear on that.

But the last sentence is the most important, backing my first statement:
If that was in Kleck's report, i doubt the NRA would have let that slip through.

BTW, if you really want to check the undp report, don't read it all! it's 250+ pages. The first part is made of analysis, second part is a lot statistics. If it's the same than the 2000 edition, homicides are in the table #26 (criminality). I'm not sure if they have info on the guns/people ratio. It may be in another UN report. This one is mainly about governmental issues and spendings (not social behaviors).

Explain the human fascination with any item, tool or toy. The way you wrote it it sounded you were just begging someone to come and start an argument.</font>[/QUOTE]No, as a matter of fact, I wasn't, but it seems you just couldn't hold yourself back. How did I know I'd get a response just from you?

I just find it odd that people like to talk about and play with instruments of death - be they guns, knives, what-have-you. It just feels slightly out-of-place for me to have casual conversation about a weapon that can kill dozens of people in seconds.

Quote:

Guns by the way ARE not soley instruments of death. Actually I haven't killed anyone or anything in over a year with my guns...unless you count paper targets and soda cans as killing.

A gun is a weapon. A weapon is made to kill, injure or maim. Paper targets and soda cans might be fine for target practice, but that's not the main purpose of a gun - otherwise I would have to ask why you don't just shoot your paper targets with something less dangerous.

However, I did not want to argue here, sorry to disappoint you.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Many things in life can be unpleasant. Reality is one of them. I beleive most anti-gun advocates to be of noble intentions. That can also be said of the pacifist. Unfortunately, noble ideals don't always fit into the real world. Face it, there are people out there who want to and CAN hurt you! They are unconcerned with moral standards, particularly yours. They only want your cash and your belongings. In worse cases they want to violate you or your loved ones bodies and/or take pleasure in your pain. In the worst cases, they also want your death. These human animals only understand one language. If you don't speak it, they will ROLL OVER YOU! There is not a thing you can say to stop them! There is only one way to stop them. You must speak their language. That language is pain! It is a simple fact. To blind yourself to it won't make it go away. Certainly you can say the chances of you becoming a victem are remote. But won't once be enough? Isn't that all it takes to destroy your life? I can say one thing for sure about my abode freind. Human animal beware! Pain IS spoken here!

Remember, there are none more blind than those that refuse to see.

By the time I've replied to this, he's probably already got the .50
But, If he did, he made the right choice.

I have been mugged before - in a New York subway, as I was coming home from work a few years ago. Two guys jumped me, took my briefcase and wallet, and ran off.

If I had a gun when that happened, it would have been useless. In fact, I think they would've been more likely to take the gun as well, since they only had knives.

Fortunately, my things were recovered, and those two nice gentlemen are still in prison last time I checked.

So, before you comment that guns can save your life - in some cases, I suppose they can, in others, it's probably iffy, but in instances such as mine, they would be useless (or a liability). They are not the answer to everything.

But, enough, I promised myself I wouldn't debate here, so I won't say another word on this topic. If you want to continue this discussion, feel free to create a "Gun Control" thread.

I have been mugged before - in a New York subway, as I was coming home from work a few years ago. Two guys jumped me, took my briefcase and wallet, and ran off.

If I had a gun when that happened, it would have been useless. In fact, I think they would've been more likely to take the gun as well, since they only had knives.

Fortunately, my things were recovered, and those two nice gentlemen are still in prison last time I checked.

So, before you comment that guns can save your life - in some cases, I suppose they can, in others, it's probably iffy, but in instances such as mine, they would be useless (or a liability). They are not the answer to everything.

But, enough, I promised myself I wouldn't debate here, so I won't say another word on this topic. If you want to continue this discussion, feel free to create a "Gun Control" thread.</font>[/QUOTE]OK. I doubt that it would have been totally useless, but I guess that would all depend on the person and circumstances. Thanks for the response. I'll start a thread on it. Visit if you're interested. [img]smile.gif[/img]