Ironworks Gaming Forum - What a boring game!!!!!!!!

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- Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 Also SoU & HotU Forum (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=16)

- - What a boring game!!!!!!!! (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34023)

Origins of the Romani People
by Ian Hancock

Quote:

The Roma have been made up of many different groups of people from the very beginning, and have absorbed outsiders throughout their history. Because they arrived in Europe from the East, they were thought by the first Europeans to be from Turkey or Nubia or Egypt, or any number of vaguely acknowledged non-European places, and they were called, among other things, Egyptians or ‘Gyptians, which is where the word "Gypsy" comes from. In some places, this Egyptian identity was taken entirely seriously, and was no doubt borrowed by the early Roma themselves. In the 15th century, James the Fifth of Scotland concluded a treaty with a local Romani leader pledging the support of his armies to help recover "Little Egypt" (an old name for Epirus, on the Greek-Albanian coast) for them.

It was not until the second half of the 18th century that scholars in Europe began to realize that the Romani language, in fact, came from India. Basic words, such as some numerals and kinship terms, and names for body parts, actions, and so on, were demonstrably Indian.■ So—they concluded—if the language were originally Indian, its speakers very likely must be as well. Once they realized this, their next questions were the obvious ones: if Roma were indeed from India, when did they leave, and why, and are there still Roma in that country?

At the very beginning of the 11th century, India came under attack by the Muslim general Mahmud of Ghazni, who was trying to push Islam eastwards into India, which was mainly Hindu territory. The Indian rulers had been assembling troops to hold back the Muslim army for several centuries already, deliberately drawing their warriors from various populations who were not Aryan. The Aryans had moved into India many centuries before, and had pushed the original population down into the south, or else had absorbed them into the lowest strata of their own society, which began to separate into different social levels or castes, called varnas ("colors") in Sanskrit.■

The Aryans regarded Aryan life as being more precious than non-Aryan life, and would not risk losing it in battle. So the troops that were assembled to fight the armies of Mahmud of Ghazni were all taken from non-Aryan populations, and made honorary members of the Kshattriya, or warrior caste, and allowed to wear their battledress and emblems.■

They were taken from many different ethnic groups who spoke many different languages and dialects. Some were Lohars and Gujjars, some were Tandas, some were Rajputs, non-Indian peoples who had come to live in India some centuries before, and some may also have been Siddhis, Africans from the East African coast who fought as mercenaries for both the Hindus and the Muslims. This composite army moved out of India through the mountain passes and west into Persia, battling with Muslim forces all along the eastern limit of Islam. While this is to an extent speculative, it is based upon sound linguistic and historical evidence, and provides the best-supported scenario to date. Because Islam was not only making inroads into India to the east, but was also being spread westwards into Europe, this conflict carried the Indian troops—the early Roma—further and further in that direction, until they eventually crossed over into southeastern Europe about the year 1300.

From the very beginning, then, the Romani population has been made up of various different peoples who have come together for different reasons. As the ethnically and linguistically mixed occupational population from India moved further and further away from its land of origin (beginning in the 11th century), so it began to acquire its own ethnic identity, and it was at this time that the Romani language also began to take shape. But the mixture of peoples and languages didn’t stop there, for as the warriors moved northwestwards through Persia, they took words and grammar from Persian, and no doubt absorbed new members too; and the same thing happened in Armenia and in the Byzantine Empire, and has continued to happen in Europe. In some instances, the mingling of small groups of Roma with other peoples has resulted in such groups being absorbed into them and losing their Romani identity; the Jenisch are perhaps such an example. In others, it has been the outsiders who have been absorbed, and who, in the course of time, have become one with the Romani group.

In Europe, Roma were either kept in slavery in the Balkans (in territory that is today Romania), or else were able to move on and up into the rest of the continent, reaching every northern and western country by about 1500. In the course of time, as a result of having interacted with various European populations, and being fragmented into widely-separated groups, Roma have emerged as a collection of distinct ethnic groups within the larger whole.■
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Honorable Ian F. Hancock, of British Romani and Hungarian Romani descent, represents Roma on the United States Holocaust Memorial Council. He is professor of Romani Studies at the University of Texas at Austin, and has authored nearly 300 publications. In 1997, he was awarded the international Rafto Human Rights Prize (Norway), and in 1998 was recipient of the Gamaliel Chair in Peace and Justice (USA).

I'm taking Ian Hancocks word over yours on this matter Fionnguala. If we're comparing degrees, he is a decorated professor [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-08-2002, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

So, we have an American game, prepetuating a derogatory misconception about a people who Patin call "the most persecuted minority in Europe".

One of the two loudest voices against mine are from a German who's own government "claims it reduces racial violence by removing Roma from their country."

Possiblility she's not getting the full picture? I see 2 + 2 making four.

The other voice is from a guy who's intent to prove me wrong about everything because a Christian can't be RIGHT about something can they?? That would mean they're actually logical and not chemotropically halucinating. ;)

I think the petition solution is a good move.

No I'm not just being a pain in the butt. I care about historical and factual accuracy, and am concerned that an oppressed people without a public voice (as mentioned in quoted posts) get their self esteem stepped on once again, this time by a new generation.

I'd hope it will never be said that the gaming community perpetuated this.

How do we get this petition going? Neb? Deathcow? How do we do it?

[ 07-08-2002, 03:35 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Heh, this is a funny thread. Emotions flying high and people at times talking about who knows what...

First, I agree with Yorick on gypsies - it's wrong that the race as such is marked to be a "thief" right away. There are loads of thieves in every race, and it's definately not a 'treat' based on the race;

I do not see there any issue with the loads of skills and abilities. If any of you played through, for example, Fallout 1 & 2, you had to choose there too between a lot of skills and traits and perks. Nothing was confusing, simply read the description and done. I personally like when there's a lot of things to choose from;

The "not like BG1/BG2/IWD" issue - it was never stated that NwN will be an expansion to any of them, so it's silly to expect to see or recognize any of those games in NwN. Sure, some names and such in general may be common, after all, these games are 'based' on the same realm, but that's that. Also, NwN was aimed to be the multiplayer game mainly, with the possibility to create your own worlds and adventures. As far as I can remember, the game was always introduced as multiplayer game, which also "includes a single player campaign". So you don't like the single player story - fine, play multiplayer and create your own story, then;

Keep yer hardware up-to-date. Reading that some still have Voodoo1/2/3 and then blame it on NWN that it wont run, isn't serious. Either you've been playing only BG1 or Solitare, or nothing at all, if you still have such ancient hardware. Most of the current titles, and probably all the upcoming ones, don't support anything that old anyway;

As for liking or not - that's personal. Some do like, some don't. I do like BG1 and BG2, but to me these are already too old titles to bother myself with. Sure, there are classes I yet didn't try and occasional quest related to that class, what I didn't do. No biggie, it was fun while it lasted, but now it's too old, and I want something new. One can't hang to the past too long, or one will just wither away and vanish..

EDIT: tiny corrections here and there. Did I correct it all? Prolly not, so what..

[ 07-08-2002, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: Whailor ]

I think y'all are reading too much into the gypsy thing. I'm not saying it's right, in fact I to believe it to be racist towards Romanies.
But you guys are making it sound like it was done on purpose by some racist pig that works for Bioware. I believe that ignorance is more likely the culprit and if you were to drop Bioware a line to let them know the conotations of having the "Gypsy" name associated with rogues, then they will release a patch and be very sorry indeed [img]smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

Originally posted by Yorick:
So, we have an American game, prepetuating a derogatory misconception about a people who Patin call "the most persecuted minority in Europe".

One of the two loudest voices against mine are from a German who's own government "claims it reduces racial violence by removing Roma from their country."

Possiblility she's not getting the full picture? I see 2 + 2 making four.

The other voice is from a guy who's intent to prove me wrong about everything because a Christian can't be RIGHT about something can they?? That would mean they're actually logical and not chemotropically halucinating. ;)

I think the petition solution is a good move.

No I'm not just being a pain in the butt. I care about historical and factual accuracy, and am concerned that an oppressed people without a public voice (as mentioned in quoted posts) get their self esteem stepped on once again, this time by a new generation.

I'd hope it will never be said that the gaming community perpetuated this.

How do we get this petition going? Neb? Deathcow? How do we do it?

Yorick, it's been fun watching you become energized with passion over the injustice with this gypsy reference (I don't feel as strongly about it myself - I'm probably quite an cynical person when it comes to social justice - but I can understand you guys feeling so strongly about it [img]smile.gif[/img] ).

Yorick, might I suggest something? I think YOU would be an excellent candidate to lead this petition to Bioware - you are articulate and I am sure you would be able to word something up to maximize the impact. I can provide you with the relevant contact details at Bioware and Infogrames if you like.

You may want to set up an email address (hotmail or something) to take in feedback from people, to gauge the level of support, before sending something to Bio/Infogrames which adequately reflects everyone's concerns (I know Ken Baker did this when petitioning Bio for releasing the IE as open source).

Just a suggestion though: you may want to ask for Z's permission before you use Ironworks as a launchpad to do this - I'm not sure if he has a professional relationship with Bioware/Infogrames to manage, and it would be unfair if this movement was to negatively impact him, being the forum owner and all. I don't *think* he will have a problem with it, but then again I don't own Ironworks. Just as a courtesy. ;)

Keep us updated on progress! It's quite inspirational and I wish you guys every success with it - it's great to see people walking the walk, not just talking the talk. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-08-2002, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Quote:

Originally posted by Downunda:
I believe that ignorance is more likely the culprit and if you were to drop Bioware a line to let them know the conotations of having the "Gypsy" name associated with rogues, then they will release a patch and be very sorry indeed [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yep, they'll be very sorry indeed once they realize that a Romany/Gypsy could sue them [img]tongue.gif[/img] They won't bother to make a patch because the thing is a bit racist. But because it could cost them money.

Quote:

Originally posted by theifprowess:
im not a sore loser i just tire from argueing with you about a topic that shoukdnt be

There's an easy solution to that, mate - stop arguing. ;) There's no winning or losing involved here - just sharing points of view. That's what I do when I get bored with something - I use my Back button. Not many people use it unfortunately - they continue to argue even though it just makes them more and more annoyed. There's not much point continuing an argument once it's obvious the other person won't agree with you (this goes both ways ;) ).

Besides, I think that's it's great to see someone actually putting their money where their mouth is about righting a perceived injustice. Not many people actually do as they say - it's not a technical or gameplay topic per se, but it's refreshing to see people (Yorick, Neb, etc.) actually willing to put a petition together. I look forward to seeing the progress and results over the coming weeks/months. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-08-2002, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

alright last post here for me i wanna petition all the loyal NWN players here a poll per say. who wants argumentitive stuff like this in the NWN forum or keep it in gen dis. if i wanted to continue bitching and arguing i would be back in gen dis argueing religion like i was before. got tired of it and moved on. i thought this area was free from it but guess not.and yes historical german figures wanted the so called gypsies, jews and any other CREEDS that werent perfect in their eyes removed from their country. but there were alot of civilians and or military figures who didnt want it as such. try watching shindlers list. it showed that in a course of tyranny there were those who fought against it in their own little way. yet another example of looking at the topic from 1 point of view.

i am german and i take great offense to you talking of germans like that. i find you offensive to a race of people yorick cause you see them as a whole. not all government figures are as such not to mention germany is no longer germans in a sense that immigration has dwindled the actual german population. so arew you talking about the germans now or the germans of ww2. regardless i hold what you said as very offensive

i see my bashing thread was closed off so ill finish here. memnoch said he is tired of me and yorick bitching back and forth i am 2.thats why i left general discussion. and this thread here got started off track here on the seventh post. yorick started talking about flaws in the game and pros, fine no problem thats what the post was about. he did not need to start a creed war in this.starting a topic like that is bound to get alot of positive and or negative feedback.

i thought while everyone is online there is no such thing as race or color but we are all numbers online. why cant we keep racisism off here and let it ride in the real world?let alone a general help forum.maybe you can overlook all my posts here in NWN nights forum memnoch, they have been to either help support or answer questions in this related area. never once did I spout out racial descrepencies.i did however get upset when someone else had to bring it to this section of the forum.

maybe im wrong maybe im right maybe we should spread the racial intolerances throughout this forum make everyone aware of how unfun this game can really be. but to go ahead and call me a sore loser(very childish might i add) cause i feel that maybe it is getting way outta hand and that i should leave i felt was very grown up of me to realize that this subject was going nowhere.

Well if anybody is a racist on this thread its Yorrik. Read his answer to Fionnguala MacMorna and you know what I mean.